Double Bass Minor II-V question

[PauFerro]

I am watching a video on how to solo with scales over minor II-V's in the key of G minor.

The II-V given is:

Am7b5 | D7b2 |Gm6 ||

This appears to be based on the harmonization of the natural minor scale.

The video author indicates you need three scales to solo over this.

Am7b5 (G Natural Minor, or, more precisely the second mode of G natural minor)
D7b2 (G Harmonic Minor scale, starting on the fifth)
Gm6 (G Melodic Minor scale)

I get the reasons for the scales associated with Am7b6, and D7b2. Thanks to input from others in another thread.

But I don't understand why the melodic minor is used over Gm6. My understanding is that the melodic minor puts a major seventh in the scale, and there is none in a Gm6. It would have to be Gm maj7 for a melodic minor scale to fit over it -- wouldn't it? I also think I'd be back to a G Natural Minor scale over the Gm6, and the correct chord would be Gm7 or Gm7b6 so the sixth fits with the natural minor scale on which the progression is built. Better yet, just end on Gm7 and be truly in the natural minor scale.

Comments?

 

[Steve Freides]

I haven't watched the video, but based on what you said:

Am7b5 (G Natural Minor, or, more precisely the second mode of G natural minor)

Agreed: Eb, F

D7b2 (G Harmonic Minor scale, starting on the fifth)

Most folks would call that D7b9, not b2. Agreed: Eb, F#

Gm6 (G Melodic Minor scale)

Chord spelled G - Bb - D - E (natural), so

But I don't understand why the melodic minor is used over Gm6.

Your call. If you use E-natural and F-natural, then you've got G Dorian as opposed to natural, harmonic, or melodic minor. Both sound fine to my ear without the context of a song and associated mood/feel.

Summary: + means raised from natural minor.

Nat Minor: 6, 7

Harm Min: 6, 7+

Dorian: 6+, 7

Mel Min (asc): 6+, 7+

All good, would depend on feel, where you're headed, and all that.

Go to the piano and play it both ways - chord in the left hand and the scale/mode you're considering in your right. Decide for yourself.

-S-

 

[PauFerro]

Thanks -- I assume you mean when you say Nat Minor 6,7 -- that it's implied that the sixth is flatted, as in Eb if talking about the G natural minor scale.

Therefore, Dorian: 6+, 7 means raise the sixth so its no longer flatted, as in E. Correct?

Also, I am curious why there is so much flexibility on the final chord and scale. If we are creating a song based on harmonization of the natural minor scale, and we insist on adding the 6th to the Gm ending chord, wouldn't we want to use a G natural minor scale with the 6th raised, but leave the 7th as F and not raise it to F#? Or does the Gm6 chord make the seventh ambiguous enough we can use the melodic minor without hitting a bum note?

 

[Steve Freides]

Thanks -- I assume you mean when you say Nat Minor 6,7 -- that it's implied that the sixth is flatted, as in Eb if talking about the G natural minor scale.

Therefore, Dorian: 6+, 7 means raise the sixth so its no longer flatted, as in E. Correct?

Yes to everything you said. I was assuming the natural minor is the starting point and then raising six or seven or both.

-S-

 

[PauFerro]

Thanks again...

Also, I am curious why there is so much flexibility on the final chord and scale. If we are creating a song based on harmonization of the natural minor scale, and we insist on adding the 6th to the Gm ending chord, wouldn't we want to use a G natural minor scale with the 6th raised, but leave the 7th as F and not raise it to F#? Or does the Gm6 chord make the seventh ambiguous enough we can use the melodic minor or natural minor scale without hitting a bum note?

 

[Steve Freides]

@PauFerro. We really need more context. I don’t know why you’re saying, “ creating a song based on …”. All we have are three chords. Gmin6 is a chord that exists in both G Dorian and G melodic minor ascending. You can spell it Emin7b5, too: E-G-Bb-D and then it’s a II chord in D minor but none of that matters. Perhaps you can find us a tune with this chord progression. We might still think either kind of F is okay over that chord or we might not. E.g., if the song uses a lot of an F major chord and not a lot of D7, then maybe F natural just sounds more I keeping with the rest of the song. Really tough to say without more context.

-S-

 

[DoubleMIDI]

The 6 in the chord symbol defines that a major sixth should be present ,at least in the scale), but defines nothing about the seventh. A 13 included 11, 9 and 7, so that would define the minor seventh, but the 6 doesn’t.
Same with 9, which includes the 7, but (add)2 doesn’t. In the case of 6 or 2 in the chord stmbol you are free to choose the scale unless the melody, other players or the context of the piece nail it down.
If deviations from the normal 7 (minor with chords), 9 (Major), 11 (perfect) are needed the deviation needs to be explicitly mentioned (i.e. maj7#11,13).

In your example Dorian as well as melodic minor would fit.
Without the 6 natural minor or harmonic minor would fit too.

For the modes of the melodic minor scale there is only one commonly used scale name (“altered”) and a few more in the Lydian chromatic concept, there also for harmonic minor and one for harmonic Major.

For any scales not derived from (melodic) major, where we have the mode names, I use an abbreviation for the basic scale postpended by the mode.
Like “D hMaj IV” for the scale interval structure starting from the fourth note of the harmonic Major scale on the note D. (Also known as Lydian diminished.)
Some use known scale names and add a deviation like mixolydian b2 or Lydian b7. But not all scales can be described that way with only one alteration and some scales can have two names derived from different scales: Mixolydian #4 = Lydian b7.
Even Mixolydian could be written as Major b7. So open for a lot of misuse.
And some scale names are used for different scales by different people (AFAIK super locrian or ultra locrian).

I prefer my notation for an easy understanding and covering of all scales.
You cannot derive the scale structure from a name if you do not know it, but you can from my notation if you know how to interpret the parts of it, which is easy to remember.
It might not help if you try to sight read such scales on stage if you haven’t internalized the scale structure to all of these scales in advance, but you can at least find the right notes if you have some time to check them.

But people typically stick to what they have learned previously and are hardly willing to add a new notation to their knowledge.

So, back to your question, I would use “B7b9 hMin V” as a chord symbol that includes the scale name based on the root note (B) of the chord.

If you use this notation you can always add a locrian or mMin III behind a chord in your sheet music to inform about the scale to be used on this chord.

I know that it might get problematic with slash chords as the root note can be the bass note or the chord root note above it. But if the root is in the chord above, add it on top (in front of the slash) to make that clear.

This might be a bit hard stuff at your level, but I hope it might be helpful anyway.

 

[Wasnex]

With G-6, there is no ambiguity about the quality of the 6th. It's a major 6th. G - Bb - D - E as previously stated.

Dorian mode is very common in jazz...it would not be at all weird to play Dorian over a minor i chord such as G-7. In fact some consider it the norm. Here's an article on this subject: Everything You Don't Know About Minor Harmony in Jazz • Jazzadvice

I believe the article's rationale is related to extensions. Gmin13: G - Bb - D - F - A - C - E. (The 11th is commonly left out). I.E. Rather than major 6th scale degree, the practice is derived from the major 13th chord extension, which is the same note as a major 6th.

As far as whether you should play G Dorian or G Melodic minor, look to the melody. This is sort of a diatonic approach where you are staying within the existing structure.

However, nothing says you are limited to the original framework when you are taking a ride. Typically, players comp and interact with each other in way that can lead to playing outside of the existing structure. There are various formulas/approaches for how to do this.

I don't think it would be very common to play the melodic minor scale over a minor i7 chord, but it certainly would certainly be acceptable in the right context.

Example in D minor. Note the first four bars. |D-|D-(maj7)|D-7|D-6|

Admittedly the melody is not much help, but to my ears these chords imply an obvious line leading from D to C#, to C natural to B natural. Seems to imply both Dorian and melodic minor at different points in the progression.

 

[PauFerro]

Thanks for the responses above -- before we attack My Funny Valentine, here is a simpler minor progression that I think provides the context that @Steve Freides is seeking. [I think My Funny Valentine would be a great topic for another discussion at another time, after I have time to absorb what I've been learning so far].

The question is "What minor scale should be matched to the Dm7 in bar 3, leading to the Gm7 in bar 4?"

It seems to me it would be the D natural minor scale given the 7th in the chord symbol. Based on what others are saying, D Dorian would also work because it too has a 7th in it like the D natural minor scale does. The melody in bar 3 doesn't provide any clues, as far as i can see, so the chord symbol would have to guide us.

Thoughts?

[subsequent question -- I think the Fmaj7 in the fourth stave would be an F Ionian, right? Also, what would you play over the C7 in the second ending? C Mixolydian since it's a dominant approach to the Fmaj7?]

 

[Groove Doctor]

Simplest answer: don’t crowd the E natural. Give it breathing space.

Gm6 = G Bb D E

Singing an E Nat in the melody would be very hard (or just sound like poop) against the musos playing an Eb or F Nat next to it.

I would try to avoid an Eb in a chord with D Nat & E Nat in it.

 

[PauFerro]

@PauFerro. I don’t know why you’re saying, “ creating a song based on …”.
-S-

Here is where I explain myself with sheer terror. What made me understand everyone's responses in the other thread (see https://www.talkbass.com/threads/how-would-you-solo-over-this.1572992/#post-26706081) on the minor song I posted was this -- I saw an article that went into the harmonization of the natural minor scale.

The article helped me see the families of chords based on the natural minor scale in the piece I posted in the other thread. It helped me see the big picture of the song as based on the natural minor scale, with all the minor chords in the song derived from that scale. Huge breakthrough for me, and I was able to summarize that song apparently largely correctly at a beginner level using this concept of songs based on the harmonization of a minor scale as a starting point. See that thread for the summarization I did starting with the chords based on harmonization of the natural minor scale (https://www.talkbass.com/threads/how-would-you-solo-over-this.1572992/#post-26706081).

This has led me to conclude that songs can be based on one of the minor scales, identifiable through the families of chords that are produced by the harmonization of the scale. For example, a song might be based on the chords that result when you harmonize the harmonic minor scale. Or it might be based on the chords that result when you base the song on the chords from the melodic minor scale. Again, I sincerely hope this isn't wrong as it blows out my schema for interpreting/analyzing songs that are in a minor key.

I hope I am not wrong about that, as it opened up a lot of apparent (emphasis on apparent) understanding for me.

 

[Wasnex]

Thanks for the responses above -- before we attack My Funny Valentine, here is a simpler minor progression that I think provides the context that @Steve Freides is seeking.

View attachment 4779451
The question is "What minor scale should be matched to the Dm7 in bar 3, leading to the Gm7 in bar 4?"

It seems to me it would be the D natural minor scale given the 7th in the chord symbol. Based on what others are saying, D Dorian would also work because it too has a 7th in it like the D natural minor scale does. The melody in bar 3 doesn't provide any clues, as far as i can see, so the chord symbol would have to guide us.

Thoughts?

I think you got it. IMHO try it both ways and choose the one you think sounds better. Your choice may change depending upon who you are playing with and how fancy they are getting with the harmony. IMHO the trick is to be comfortable with and ready to use different scales.

To be honest I would probably default to D natural minor because of the E-7b5. But I am neither an authentic jazzer nor cool.

Dorian seems more obvious with |E-7 A7|D-7|

 

[PauFerro]

I think thou art cool Wasnex Thanks for the reply

 

[Wasnex]

Again, I sincerely hope this isn't wrong as it blows out my schema for interpreting/analyzing songs that are in a minor key.

Here is what I think you may be missing. For most part you can play entirely within the foundation, and it will sound fine.

For a real jazzers, the foundation is just a starting point. The real jazzer feels free if not driven to color outside of the lines, but this is typically done in a structured and way.

For example, Real jazzers use a variety of scale forms that don't stay entirely within the normal frame work: Altered Scales in Music Theory: How to Play an Altered Scale - 2022 - MasterClass

 

[PauFerro]

Here is what I think you may be missing. For most part you can play entirely within the foundation, and it will sound fine.

For a real jazzers, the foundation is just a starting point.

If there is one thing I can speak with authority about, it's how to learn a wide variety of topics. I won't go into my background, but I've spent a lifetime learning and teaching all kinds of topics in a wide variety of fields. I believe that it's best to start out with simple concepts. Familiarity with such concepts eventually opens the mind to handle more complex concepts later on. So I am fine with a basic foundation for now. Just in the last day my understanding of minor harmony has been given a shot in the arm that I think will help me expand my knowledge of more complex minor improvisation later on.

Most people don't know that the phrase "Jack of all trades, master of none" is a misquote. The original quote was "Better to be a jack of all trades than a master of one".

Also, I realize that die-hard jazzers learn to play outside the changes and make it work. I don't even plan to hope to understand or do that well for the time being

 

[Papageno]

The question is "What minor scale should hed to the Dm7 in bar 3, leading to the

The question is "What minor scale should be matched to the Dm7 in bar 3, leading to the Gm7 in bar 4?"

It seems to me it would be the D natural minor scale given the 7th in the chord symbol. Based on what others are saying, D Dorian would also work because it too has a 7th in it like the D natural minor scale does. The melody in bar 3 doesn't provide any clues, as far as i can see, so the chord symbol would have to guide us.

Thoughts?

This is quite obviously D natural minor that fits over mesure 3.

You only have to ask yourself about the kind of 6th, since the 7th is given in the chord symbol. Given that both mesures 2 and 4 include a Bb in the harmony, playing a B in measure 3 would sound a bit out. So, unless you intend to sound out, you should play Bb, i.e. use the D natural minor scale, not D dorian.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I’m not sure that it’s wise to try to state what “real jazzers” do as a monolithic block. If it is, I’m not sure if I would be counted as a “real jazzer” or not. But having said that, I’ve always found it counterintuitive to think of three different scales for a minor ii V i. It may just be the way my brain works (or doesn’t), but it seems much easier to think of one big note collection with multiple options for the 6th and 7th that toggle up or down as needed.

In case it is useful to anyone, I’ve taught this subject for years to students at the U as in the following:

 

[BobDeRosa]

it seems much easier to think of one big note collection with multiple options for the 6th and 7th that toggle up or down as needed.

I think Chris has nailed it, as usual.

 

[Papageno]

On a minor ii-V-i progression (ii_m7b5 V7b9b13 i_m7 to be more specific), I find it sounds perfectly fine to simply play the natural minor through the entire progression. A good example is the second melody phrase in "Blue Bossa".

When doing this, you would play a minor 3rd over the V chord, but the latter does not clash with the major 3rd played by comping chordal instruments: in bar 6 of Blue Bossa, the melody note Bb sounds gorgeous over the G7 chord. That's why the V7 in minor usually implies the #9 extension (enharmonic to b3), in addition to b9 and b13.

 

[longfinger]

"My understanding is that the melodic minor puts a major seventh in the scale, and there is none in a Gm6."

Well you're writing about a 4 note chord and a 7 note scale. So 3 notes in the scale are "flexible". Options.

This might help.

For minor chords, there are two main functions in these styles of music:
* pre-dominant minor
* tonic minor

* pre-dominant minor : m7 : dorian and others with a b3 , a 5 and a b7
* tonic minor : min6, or minor-maj7 or simply minor triad: melodic minor ascending, often called "tonic minor". b3, 5, raised 6 and raised 7

for a min6 chord
The raised 6 is there for the chord ie. minor 6th
the raised 7th goes well with that min6 chord too and gives a different sound than the b7

minor 6th chords (1-b3-5-6) and minor-maj 7th chords (1-b3-5-7) are interchangeable as long as the maj7 does not mess with the melody.

The tonic minor does not really need to resolve or move anywhere, and does not sound like it needs to go to a dominant chord. It also has a standing dissonance that's more than the minor triad.