Monitor question I think, or amp, or hard of hearing

Major_Rager_4MF

Major_Rager_4MF

Aug 8, 2017
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#1
Hi guys/gals. I’ve been out of the game awhile, just started with a new crew a few months ago and getting back into gigs now. Nothing crazy, local weekend warrior stuff, rock covers on 5 string. My guitar player owns the PA equipment, and it’s ok, decent mains and subs, FOH mix and tone is pretty good actually, nice chest thump (2 18" subs!). I’m having some issues with stage sound though. We're only running vocals through the monitors, they can't handle the bass anyway, at least not at any volume that can be heard by me (my hearing is ~70%, childhood infections not unprotected rock). So I have to bring a bass amp for stage volume, which is fine, that’s what I’ve always done. Unlike the cheap monitors, my bass amps can handle the low frequencies of course, but again, to get a volume I can hear clearly, I have to turn up to the point that my bandmates complain the bass is too loud. I’m not sure what to do now. Any thoughts or suggestions?

One option I was thinking was another wedge monitor but with a proper bass speaker, or a bass amp shaped like a wedge monitor? Maybe if the bass is aimed up and at my face rather than behind me aiming straight out past my legs, then it would be loud enough for me to hear without offending my mates. It would be nice if we had a system where we could personalize the mix to different monitors, then I could just turn up the bass in mine, but we don’t, and the guitar player doesn’t want to use anything but his system. So maybe what I’m looking for is a wedge shaped bass amp, maybe something with 2 channels so I can take the house mix like a normal monitor so I can hear what everyone else is doing, plus my bass signal to run at a louder level? And maybe a third channel lol as long as I'm dreaming out loud, so I can actually hear my vocals higher than the others. It’s doable I think, maybe a little 3 channel mixer with at least 2 ‘through’ options to send my bass and vox on to the main mixer.

Or would IEM be a better choice? I know zero about them. Would it be possible to be the only one using one, and could I control the mix in it like I described above?

I tried talking this crew into a new mixer but no dice. My buddy’s band has a Behringer XR system, wireless control, each member can control their own monitor mix with their own phones. Pretty sweet. I even offered to buy one for my band, no dice. Oh well. Thanks for any thoughts.
 
#3
IEM all the way. Join your buddy’s band and use the Behringer.

Is there and AUX channel on the mixer that you can use for a custom mix? For an inexpensive solution, you can AUX > XLR > Rolls PM headphone amp > headphones/in ears of your choice. A limiter is a good idea to protect your ears.

I quit my old band partly because of this issue. The guy with the antique PA refused to adapt to the new technology. His “vocals” only system sounded bad in FOH and WORSE on stage. New band uses a Behringer X32 with in ears...it’s freakin wonderful.
 
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#4
If going IEMs is no go, it's all about amp placement. If you need to "fill the room" and monitor yourself, this will be a challenge. If your bass is going FOH through the board, you have options incl. tilting the cab in front of you (like a wedge) or running a second smaller extension cab in front of you for this purpose. Controlling the band's stage volume is always a challenge
 
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#5

A number of companies make “tilt back” combo amps for this very purpose.

And really, if you’re playing behind a system with dual 18” subs, you don’t need a monitor that can pump the low end.

Either way, getting the sound in front of you and pointed at your head, either with a dedicated stage monitor or tilt-back combo, should do wonders. The stage volume issue could be solved by rolling out the low end of your bass/stage monitor. With the monitor mainly reproducing mainly just the mids, you should be able to turn it up loud enough for you to hear it, without your bandmates complaining.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Ecclesia: Unique Arrangements of Hymns, P&W Standards, and Original Tunes
Administrator, Pedulla Club #45
Administrator, Tobias Club #133
Fretless Club #943
Big Cabs Club #23
My Rig: Stage and FOH Friendly
My Basses

 
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#6
Given your "hearing" challenges, I would recommend getting some decent IEM's (TRIPLE drivers) and going that route. DO NOT CHEAP out on buds.. !!!
The cheaper route is wired over wireless. For wired, something like the Rolls PM series (50, 55, 351) will let you take a wired feed from your bass amp and one from the mixer (via an AUX feed, so you can control the mix) and feed to your buds.
Wireless is more expensive, much simpler setup, but to be effective requires what your other band is doing with a digital console like the XR.
Either option will let you have "more me" in your ears WITHOUT bothering anyone else on the stage.

FWIW - been using the X series for 3 yrs with wireless IEM's now. An X32 Rack for 2 yrs in the IEM rack, and a Producer for a year prior to that. So, I have a little experience in this area.
 
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#7
Major_Rager_4MF said:
Hi guys/gals. I’ve been out of the game awhile, just started with a new crew a few months ago and getting back into gigs now. Nothing crazy, local weekend warrior stuff, rock covers on 5 string. My guitar player owns the PA equipment, and it’s ok, decent mains and subs, FOH mix and tone is pretty good actually, nice chest thump (2 18" subs!). I’m having some issues with stage sound though. We're only running vocals through the monitors, they can't handle the bass anyway, at least not at any volume that can be heard by me (my hearing is ~70%, childhood infections not unprotected rock). So I have to bring a bass amp for stage volume, which is fine, that’s what I’ve always done. Unlike the cheap monitors, my bass amps can handle the low frequencies of course, but again, to get a volume I can hear clearly, I have to turn up to the point that my bandmates complain the bass is too loud. I’m not sure what to do now. Any thoughts or suggestions?

One option I was thinking was another wedge monitor but with a proper bass speaker, or a bass amp shaped like a wedge monitor? Maybe if the bass is aimed up and at my face rather than behind me aiming straight out past my legs, then it would be loud enough for me to hear without offending my mates. It would be nice if we had a system where we could personalize the mix to different monitors, then I could just turn up the bass in mine, but we don’t, and the guitar player doesn’t want to use anything but his system. So maybe what I’m looking for is a wedge shaped bass amp, maybe something with 2 channels so I can take the house mix like a normal monitor so I can hear what everyone else is doing, plus my bass signal to run at a louder level? And maybe a third channel lol as long as I'm dreaming out loud, so I can actually hear my vocals higher than the others. It’s doable I think, maybe a little 3 channel mixer with at least 2 ‘through’ options to send my bass and vox on to the main mixer.

Or would IEM be a better choice? I know zero about them. Would it be possible to be the only one using one, and could I control the mix in it like I described above?

I tried talking this crew into a new mixer but no dice. My buddy’s band has a Behringer XR system, wireless control, each member can control their own monitor mix with their own phones. Pretty sweet. I even offered to buy one for my band, no dice. Oh well. Thanks for any thoughts.
Click to expand...

IEM would be great, but until then....

Two things: One is that you should try to see if it's really a volume problem or more of a clarity problem. Two is cab direction, as you mentioned.

Those subs may be muddying things up in combination with your amp so you are moving more than enough air, but you still can't hear yourself properly. Can you feel the notes you're playing but can't tell what notes they are? See if cutting low end from your amp and/or boosting mids will let you hear yourself better. I know it seems counter-intuitive, but it is often the solution. Particularly on hollow stages.

Definitely either raise your cab or tilt it so it's pointed at your ears, not the back of your knees. You'll hear much better that way.
 
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#8
Major_Rager_4MF said:
Or would IEM be a better choice? I know zero about them. Would it be possible to be the only one using one, and could I control the mix in it like I described above?
Click to expand...
IEMs is always the correct answer. :D Yes, you can be the only one using them, I've done this and even in my current band only 2 of us are running IEMs. Though a good IEM mix pretty much requires everything be plugged into the board, including drums. My IEMs are isolating enough that I can have trouble hearing unmic'd drums 3 feet away from me. And my drummer does not have a "light" touch. (Do they ever?) You can have as much or as little control over the mix with IEMs as you do with a wedge, that's all upstream and dependent on the mixer. Think of IEMs as just tiny floor wedges stuffed into your ears, routing wise there's not much difference, whatever source you would plug into a wedge is what you'd plug into the IEMs. (A headphone amp or wireless unit would be part of the IEMs in this analogy.)

But, as was already mentioned, until you're ready to take that plunge, fiddle around with speaker placement and see if that helps. That can make a big difference, sound waves are weird and unintuitive.
 
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#9
FuturePrimitive said:
IEMs is always the correct answer. :D Yes, you can be the only one using them, I've done this and even in my current band only 2 of us are running IEMs. Though a good IEM mix pretty much requires everything be plugged into the board, including drums. My IEMs are isolating enough that I can have trouble hearing unmic'd drums 3 feet away from me. And my drummer does not have a "light" touch. (Do they ever?) You can have as much or as little control over the mix with IEMs as you do with a wedge, that's all upstream and dependent on the mixer. Think of IEMs as just tiny floor wedges stuffed into your ears, routing wise there's not much difference, whatever source you would plug into a wedge is what you'd plug into the IEMs. (A headphone amp or wireless unit would be part of the IEMs in this analogy.)
Click to expand...
To add my $0.02 :)
Requiring everything to be plugged into the board is THE KEY factor in getting a good IEM mix.. Everything that you need [want] for you IEM mix needs to always be mic'd/DI'd into the console, no matter the size of the gig or venue.

For ANY band, this is a discipline and setup habit issue, and FAR EASIER to implement and maintain when EVERYONE is IEM. They won't get their mix if we don't all play the same game.
When there's only one or two of you on IEM's, the other's tend NOT TO want to mic/DI their gear 'cus it's more "work" and they can already hear themselves, thereby making your mix more difficult to obtain.
I get it for a drummer, but for anything else (guitars, bass, keys, etc.) it takes an extra 2 mins to hook up to the mixer.
 
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#12
I will second, third, fourth, and fifth all the suggestions regarding IEMs. There a significant investment and there is a learning curve, but it is very doable and worth the effort. Regarding your amp, I've found some judicious EQ'ing to be the key. Since your bass amp is essentially a stage monitor and not responsible for being heard in the whole venue, drop the bass to about 9 o'clock, play with mids and highs to get a pleasing, punchy sound, and then you'll be able to crank it a bit without becoming annoying. I also find you'll be able to hear it a lot better.
 
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#14
dreamadream99 said:
Look, I don’t know much about hearing loss, but I can’t believe that the answer is to pummel those already diminished capacity eardrums with an up-close and personal barrage of IEM assault frequencies.
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As with most things audio volume related.. it's judicious usage thereof!
Sure, you CAN pound your ears, but a good stereo IEM mix and listening levels, beats the SNOT out of ANY wedge system I've used over the last 30-something years.
YMMV
 
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#15
dreamadream99 said:
Look, I don’t know much about hearing loss, but I can’t believe that the answer is to pummel those already diminished capacity eardrums with an up-close and personal barrage of IEM assault frequencies.
Click to expand...
You seem to be under the misconception that IEMs are louder than wedges, quite the opposite actually. I mean, I suppose you can turn them up too loud, but why would you?
 
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#16
FuturePrimitive said:
You seem to be under the misconception that IEMs are louder than wedges, quite the opposite actually. I mean, I suppose you can turn them up too loud, but why would you?
Click to expand...
^ This

Used properly with sound isolating buds you can have your IEM volume low and still hear everything perfectly.

I am surprised some nights how much louder the ambient crowd noise is than my IEMs when I take them out. It is nice to go home and not have ringing ears, I only wish I had started using them earlier.

If you are like our drummer however (he is old and stubborn and refuses to spend any money so is using a cheap set of headphones) then expect to have to crank the volume to hear them above the stage noise.
 
#17
FuturePrimitive said:
You seem to be under the misconception that IEMs are louder than wedges, quite the opposite actually. I mean, I suppose you can turn them up too loud, but why would you?
Click to expand...
Yup. It's easier for me to hear everything clearly at a very moderate volume.. and at lower levels you don't fatigue and damage your ears and keep turning up all night. IEMs are the ONLY practical way to end the night without ringing ears and added damage. yes, you CAN turn them as loud, but, as said, why would you?

Great isolating earbuds can remove all the cymbal crash next to your ears.. I realize going to electronic drums isnt for everyone... but man.. if they work for you and your drummer, the benefits are incredible. He can whack away all he wants and get "that sound" he like when playing harder. Good electronic drums DO have lots of velocity sensitivity and you can tell the difference between light hits, medium hits and crushing blows.. Stay away from the cheap ones, they are not worth it except maybe for practice space. Sorry.... changed topic there.
 
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#20
dreamadream99 said:
because he has hearing loss, and he won’t be able to hear them at normal safe volumes. It’d be like turning the stove burner higher under your hand if you have nerve damage. Damaged hearing is just as susceptible to damage from high volume as normal hearing.
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But he's already pummeling his ears with floor wedges and amps, IEMs will always give you reduced volume and safer listening levels.
 
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