My long awaited P-ray5 project is underway, which P pickup?

[andruca]

I've been playing mostly a couple Stingray5s since forever but I like myself (or need) a P or PJ tone sometimes. Problem is I can't live with my Rays' playability, low B goodness and cut-thru quality and no matter what I've tried these latest years to fill in that role (a couple Fernandes Gravitys, a Maruszczyk Jake, some Yamaha BBs) I end up frustrated and disapointed. OTOH, I'd never dare do any P "operation" on my SLO/CA SR5s (as long as it's up to me they're to be inherited by my two children). Also owned a Sterling5 HS that, even tho' it was versatile, wasn't all that good at the more "Fenderish" tasks.

SO, just minutes ago I pulled the trigger on a slightly used totally gorgeous black (thus mahogany, probably light) SBMM Ray35 for a really good price (little over half of what a new Ray35 costs here), with the intention to have it routed and equipped with a (reversed) P pickup just beside the MM humbucker (a couple mm off the Precision's spot, closest you can get on a Musicman). What I want is something that's growly and doesn't sound too tame compared to the MM humbucker, something close in punch, aggressiveness, lowend authority, etc. I've been forever fantasizing about a Wilde/Bill Lawrence P-46 but I'm no pickup expert, there could be better, that's where I need your sapience. Also, any clue as to how to wire it? (my ideal would be to have a blend pot -post coil tap for the humbucker-) Thanks in advance for your help.

EDIT: also, what about this?

 

[BigBenH18]

Hi!

Great idea. I'm a PJ guy but would love to own a Stingray in the future. Then again a Stingray is kind of a one trick pony so a single pickup might be one dimensional for my purposes. Recently I saw the Nordy DL VM5 which combines Stingray and P tones in one bass. So that would be my dream bass. This one has the P pickup in the original configuration but if I had a choice I probably would go like you for a reverse P. If you want something bold you should go for a P pickup with large MM style pole pieces. Häussel and Delano offer them that way. Or check out the nordstrand NP5 for something more modern.

 

[andruca]

A Stingray could be a one trick pony (yet you still hear them used in MANY types of music), but the Stingray5 has much more tonal options, thanks to the 3-way coil tap, a quite different animal in fact. I've already had the Delano big poles P pickup (on a Maruszczyk Jake 5a+, P+MM config.) and it sounded surprisingly dead, either active or passive. And when I say dead I really mean it, DEAD, like my 88€ thomann P kit build's pickup sounds light years better both in punch and brightness. Also I've played a friend's Sandberg TM5 (big pole Delano J+MM) many times and it sounds equally dead. The MM type Delano is also dark, totally non-barking compared to the real thing. So Delano big poles are a no-no for me. The Nordy OTOH is closer to my thing, but probably too modern sounding for my taste, I'd go with the NP5V or the 51P5S ('51P style split humbucker, could be put exactly at the sweet spot). Thanks a lot for your suggestions and food for thought.

 

[andruca]

After a very productive mail interchange with Stew McKinsey at Nordstrand I might be going the NP5 route, but passive, to output (via switching or blend with what comes out of the Musicman part of the bass). I'll keep updates coming in case somebody finds this useful in the future.

 

[andruca]

UPDATE!

Test subject made it home. BTW, AWESOME quality. I had already tried one briefly at a store and was expecting great, but it shocked me again. Much better than any USA SUB bass I've ever played too (didn't like their 5ers, 2-band EQ, no coil tap, didn't play as close to the real thing, neck didn't reproduce the SR5 profile). Only thing I don't like is the zingyness of the filtered series position (nothing like my SR5s' single+phantom, the tone I use the most) so I'm probably dealing with that by installing a 2P3T switch to cut either coil (or none) for use in the parallel position so I have both coils as real single. After lowering the action to my usual ultra low (seller was nice enough to ship it stringed with a new Sandberg .040" steel set) I must say side by side this feels like the real deal and sound is in the VERY CLOSE vicinity (considering my Rays' ceramic 3-coil vs. this 2-coil alnico), and despite any timbrical peculiarity, it's all there, the punch, the mids, the cutting low-mids, the lowend authority, plus a very powerful EQ (probably not as "round" as an EBMM SR5's in the bass dept). It's a little lighter than my EBMMs, about 300-400g (roughly under 1lb), my EBMMs are both around 4.5kg (some 10lb). AFAIK black Ray35s have a mahogany body, could be that, nice.

Finally a Bill Lawrence P46 is in the making for this one, intended to run parallel to the "MM section" output, with an added concentric volume+passive tone pot (not yet sure where it'll go, would like it between the switch and the bass control, hopefully there's some room). Pickup position will be the same as in a P-bass for the half that deals with low strings (some 1cm apart from the MM pickup), with the other towards the neck.

 

[sikamikanico]

I think your reverse P idea should work well. The question is finding the right P to match the MM, and I suppose it may take a few trials. I’d still consider large pole Alnico P’s, there’s M&V Atlas, and Sentell also makes them. Maybe eventually Caprice/Cutlass P pickups will show up on the market too... Keep us posted about how it goes!

 

[somebrains]

1) I went down the Warwick $$ route bc I wanted more options. It was a learning experience. I like a singlecoil neck MM bridge, basically the FNA layout. Then I'll split the bridge and run MM neck. Blend becomes a very powerful tool when you can go parallel/series with your MM. Right now I've got a pair of SD Alnicos in my 5, and a pair of Nordstand Bigmans in my 4. Huge fan of the hot Big Single when I'm using a split setting.

2) I prefer a reverse P ala Pedulla & Spector. I never found much use mixing in a J. P+MM has always been something I wanted to build.

3) I stumbled across a Tonestyler in a Jazz 5 I picked up with 10% overwound Fralins. I kinda rigged it to the $$4 with Bigmans to tame the hot output. Lots of possibilities in there to keep the innate screaming blast of a hot pickup, then dial it down to Motown. There's also this video:

4) I bought one of these yesterday:

It'll go into either position of my $$4 for now.
I have the same inclination as you do, pickup a cheapie something.
I think it's final resting place will be paired with a reversed Nordstrand Power Blade P, i just don't know if it'll be P+MM or MM+P.

I also really liked rock and roll 2xP setups bc that bridge P has it's own awesome thing going.....and I imagine blending in giant meaty MM in the traditional spot or higher where the dual MM basses go is worth a try.

 

[somebrains]

 

[andruca]

My idea is to hardly ever mix them (wouldn't need to), like having 2 basses in one, joined at the output jack (using the best frames, low Bs, playability, which for me is the MM). And then maybe be able to, while using the P section, mix in a little Musicman section (dimming the MM's highs, not to "invade" the P timbre) to add punch, lowend authority, cutting ability, as desired.

The P-46 looked like a cautious first approach to me, reviews usually point to it's non-extreme nature in any aspect (gain, response, not too classic sounding, not too modern, etc).

 

[somebrains]

That's why I posted the clip of the guy sliding the MM back and forth.
I like the MM higher, around where the P normally sits.
I think a P bridge is incredibly useful solo.

So that's my discreet MM+P after 4-7 basses that have started out with good intentions and ended up as learning experiences.

I like the P46 pickup, it's a solid honest to goodness P tone.
However you are going to balance that against any MM you pick will require some fiddling back and forth bc you won't have very matched output.

It is a classic issue with PJ setups.
Aguilar explicitly markets one of their PJ setups as balanced.
Nordstrand Power Blade P seems to go with any of their huffy and puffier J/MM/etc

So keep that balance in mind, especially if you are using 2 pickups as separate and discreet options.
Output mismatch was a deciding factor in the EMG MM something bc when people split that early MM the output drop was a pita to compensate for.

SD Alnico in parallel would be a really nice body mate to the P46, if I was inclined to go bipolar with a pair of pickups.

 

[andruca]

Got the cheap big pole Jazz pickups. Not bad at all, look and feel solid. First thing I noticed is that the only difference between them is really the casing size (prolly to match some Fender standard), pole pieces are equally separated on both pickups (luckily it happens to match the bass' ~16mm spacing in that zone). So I spent 5 minutes soldering and came up with a test rig that swaps the neckside coil of the humbucker with this via a 1PDT switch. The pickup is held hanging from the outside on some EVA blocks and 3M Traceless, 1 minute build time, easy to move.

Nicest sounding position I got (the right balance between tightness and clonk) was some 14cm away from the center saddle barrel's center (some 21-22mm away from the humbucker, border to border). The up facing pickup by the lower horn is in the photo so you can see how these look, really clean to the eye.

After trying this pickup I'm probably changing my mind about how to wire any new pickup in. In this case it's completely integraged to the Musicman scheme, goes thru' its preamp (which BTW, bonds really well with this pickup, can get a lot of distinct yet usable tones out of it). It's not as hot as individual coils in the humbucker, so when combined with the bridgeside coil it's like balancing towards the bridge, reminded me of Tony Kanal's jazzy tone on his BBs. Still, I don't feel like doing anything about it if, in the end, I decided to install this one, there's more than enough to choose from, even at this early minimal messing stage (I'd really love this to work just by adding a 1PDT switch). So far you could select the 3 stock settings (all using both humbucker coils) and the 2 real single coils I previously modded in. Now you have one more single coil option and 3 other 2-coil combinations. I've gone from the initial 3 to 5 settings, to a total of 9 sounds settings once I add another pickup.

I'll probably report back when I get to test the P46 on this same test rig.

 

[andruca]

Not much to show, just report after some days testing the Bill Lawrence P46 I decided I'm going with the one of these single coil cheap Donlis pickups (particularly the neckside one, sounds a little hotter and rounder). Thing is, even tho' I could balance the output of the P46 to the individual coils of the MM humbucker (by adjusting height) tone is still too tame, not nice combined with the bridgeside coil of the humbucker. The cheapo single I'm going with isn't bad at all, and definitely barks more (I like agressive P). In fact, I used to own a Marusczyk Jake 5a+ with the Delano big pole P pickup and let it go as those pickups sounded dead in comparison wity my Stingray5's. This big pole single coil Donlis is much more in-your-face and alive, wish there was an inline or stacked humbucker version. I'll update with photos and clips once I do the final install (so far I've "dremeled" the pickguard, I'm carving the body today if I'm able to gather the time).

 

[somebrains]

I'd go with an OBP preamp, some guys would go MEC/EMG, others know a Bart NTMB will help with some color.

Pick your poison, it should help.

 

[andruca]

I indeed like the stock preamp in the Ray35, never intended to change it (nor ever did in my USA Rays). I'm halfway thru' the new pickup installation. So far pickup output can be matched by adapting both pickups' height, but there's still the final assembly pending, then I'll know for sure. Will hopefully be able to do some photos and record some soundclips tonight.

 

[mouthmw]

TBH I was hoping you'd install a P pup in there. I would have gone with EMG GZR. Not a huge fan of single coils, but if it works, great!

 

[somebrains]

Things may change based on how the P sounds with the Ray preamp.

 

[andruca]

I've tried 3 different pickups, both passive (wired straight to a floating jack) and into the stock preamp/switching scheme. In all cases results weren't too different in terms of character, the preamp doesn't color that much really. I preferred the big pole J because it barks/growls more (while being equally thick), thus' mates better with the overall character of the instrument. Still I don't discard routing a wider rectangular zone both on the wood and the pickguard and keep trying pickups (using rings out of trimmed P, J, whatever pickguards), after all this Ray35 is the project Stingray5 I always wanted to have, my "Sagrada Familia", an ever ongoing opera. Current pickup position is where the BEA part of a P pickup would be (much closer to the humbucker than the single coil in HS Stingrays/Sterlings). Didn't have much time yesterday for it (I get home arount 6.30PM and we have 2 kids, you know, time is scarce, took me 2 evenings to do the "routing" -a combination of drill, chisel, Dremel, filing and sanding, came out decently clean-). I was only able to screw everything back into place, put some foam under the new pickup (initial attachment in the route was sorta' precarious), restring, setup and take a crappy pic with my phone. No samples probably until tonight, sorry.

Both pickups are pretty high (some 4mm away from the strings). There's 2 added switches. If we numbered coils from bridge to neck as 1, 2 and 3 the extra switch to the right of this photo (1PDT) swaps coil 2 for coil 3 (the new pickup). The switch to the left of the picture (DP3T) cuts either coil (1/2 or 1/3 according to previous selection) or none for parallel/filtered series/series (series works only if there's 2 coils connected, obviously), I had done this mod as soon as I got the bass to have real single coil. So, the 9 combinations I have now are:

A) coils 1&2 (stock): parallel, filtered series, series
B) coils 1&3: parallel, filtered series, series
C) each of the 3 coils soloed

Even tho' there aren't drastic volume mismatches when switching, there's some EQ compensation needed for each of these 3 groups of combinations. My EQ on any stock SR5 is hi/mid flat and a slight bass boost. Starting from that point (group A above) in the less than 1/2 hour I fiddled with it I figured out I need to boost mids and cut highs a bit for group B (sort of a modern jazzy tone, reminds me of a Fernandes Gravity I had long ago), and for singled coils I go just bass boost when it's coils 1 or 2 (~ as for the stock Musicman tones), or cut highs while boosting mids and lows for coil 3 (new pickup) soloed. I'll post those samples ASAP.

EDIT: BTW, the 3rd pickup I tried besides the P46 and the one I installed was a no brand P pickup from a thomann 4 string kit which is surprisingly good (the guy from Guns&Guitars made this same remark about the same kit in a build video). Sounded more in your face, I preferred the timbre to the P46's, but it lacked in the lows in comparison, so it didn't stand a chance.

 

[Clark Dark]

Hi, with the Ray's large pole pieces which lend to its power and tone I would go with a Delano or Suhr P Bass pickups due to the likewise large pole pieces to equalize the output and add to the tonality.

 

[andruca]

I've in fact had the Delano big poles P on a Maruszczyk Jake 5a+ and it sounded dead in comparison to the general Musicman vibe (the MM type Delano that bass also had had the same deadness to it), both passive or thru' the active preamp. As soon as I plugged my Stingray 5ers it sounded like somebody had took out a blanket from over the amp. The Delano P sounded dead even compared to my 88€ thomann kit build's no name P pickup. Gave up on that Maruszczyk because I couldn't get past those pickups. Also there was a certain scoop to them that was the anti-Musicman (meaning it used to get lost in mixes easily due to a big dip around 600hz).

 

[andruca]

Now, onto the samples, here you are. There's the 3 aforementioned groups of settings, in order (coil 1 is closest to bridge):

COILS 1 and 2 (STOCK, typical Musicman): parallel, filtered series, series
COILS 1 and 3 (jazzy, sorta'): parallel, filtered series, series
SINGLE COILS: 1, 2, 3

It's quickly recorded thru' a Zoom MS60B (SansAmp + dbx166 emulations) straight into an eeePC running Audacity. The EQ on the bass isn't changed during the whole clip, mostly flat, just a little low boost.