Double Bass Naming notes/tunings wrong on purpose?

[saucypebble]

Hi all,
just watched this Beato video and he did something, I experienced many musicians do before

He says "The first song is in Drop D flat." and few moments later talking about mixolydian mode "you have a D flat, but we will call it D". I remember a session a while back where the guitarist was like "next riff will be in E" and started off with an Eb on a downtuned guitar. Had me really confused back than.

So are people just super sloppy, dont like to be accurate or is there a practical reason for this kind of misnaming?

And can someone please explain why its such a pain to discussing chrod progressions with saxophonists? The few times I played with them at sessions they would always name the chords diffrently to what the actual root note would be (but play the correct note). To me that was nuts since an A is an A is an A, regardless of your instrument.

Hope this is the correct sub. Thanks

 

[Jhengsman]

Your average woodwind player will transpose because he might have three different tunings to worry about. Eb, Bb and C. S the same concert pitch will have different fingerings between an Eb alto, Bb tenor and a C flute. Those with more knowledge and experience to the rest of the band. can talk in concert pitch

 

[Groove Doctor]

To answer the sax & trumpet tuning part of your question.
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/why-are-brass-instruments-tuned-in-bb.1138262/

For drop tunings, it’s a whole lot easier think of the notes the way the guitarist did above. It was remiss of him to tell you he had detuned.

What a pedant would call sloppy, most other people would call shorthand.

 

[Don Hergert]

I'll give my impression of the reasons behind this; as a 50 year fretted roots instrument player who has also played in jazz bands, I might have some valuable thoughts. While I'm not an ultimate expert at music theory, I've studied it enough to be able to be comfortable playing with reeds and horns in jazz, as well as roots music players. I'd be interested in reading explanations from our more learned theory specialists though, so please speak up if I'm off base with all of this...

Keep in mind that many if not most woodwind and brass instruments are available in a flatted tuning (ie: Bb, Eb, etc.) for jazz, as well as a concert tuning (ie: C, F, etc.) for orchestral music. Most jazz music for woodwind and brass is written in the flatted keys; most orchestral music for woodwind and brass is written in concert keys. Many players of these instruments have both kinds, so they can play in either environment. Thus there is less transposing for those instruments when playing music made for them.

This gets confusing for capo dependent fretted instrument players because a key called in a jazz band with woodwind or brass instruments may or may not correspond to the keys and chords that the fretted instrument player is used to playing in. This is also a reason that people may down tune their fretted instruments, or capo up, a half step, so they can more easily play in a jazz environment with the reeds and the horns.

Many guitarists and players of other fretted instruments depend on capos for any transposition and as a result they aren't required to get the mindset of the names involved with the real underlying chord changes. This is especially common with roots fretted instrument players who use capos combined with the Nashville Numbering System or other numbering systems, instead of calling the actual keys and chords. I've also seen this with jazz players. Playing a stringed instrument without capos, or as with double bass, without the ability to use either capos or barre chords, demands that people know their chords more intimately, including the actual closed chord positions and the names of their chords.

 

[saucypebble]

I see, thanks! Still think its weird. In my mind, I as instrumentalist, am responsible to know the correct pitch of the finger positions on my instruments. But ok, I can roll with that.

Is it normal though not to announce these things? "Hey, just fyi, if I call a C its actually Bb"? I remember talking to one of the sax guys after the set, asking about the pitch difference and he seemed completely oblivious to what I am talking about. Do people who play with brass intuitively know/assume this?

 

[smeet]

All the wind players I have played with have understood their instrument(s) to communicate in concert pitch names. I have never heard of a jazz vs orchestral wind instrument. IME, a trumpet and clarinet are in Bb, oboe and flute are in C (concert), and alto sax is in Eb.

Talking with a decent sax player is easy. They know how to transpose in their head on the fly. Talking with a guitarist who detunes and uses a capo can be a nightmare. Ignore what they say and just use your ears.

 

[Groove Doctor]

Try calling chords as I IV V vi etc. This translates MUCH better to the other instruments.

 

[Don Hergert]

... I have never heard of a jazz vs orchestral wind instrument. IME, a trumpet and clarinet are in Bb, oboe and flute are in C (concert), and alto sax is in Eb. ...

Yup, they do exist. When I bought my trumpet I had a choice of either a C or Bb trumpet. Then I asked around and found other horns and reed instruments -- and I understand even flutes -- are similarly voiced for either jazz or orchestra.

For the player, the fingering is the same, but for different notes. Again, to reduce transposing. If you're an orchestral horn player, do you want to always have to transpose to play in the same keys as the strings?

From the Wiki for (1} trumpet and (2) flute:

"... The trumpet is a brass instrument commonly used in classical and jazz ensembles. The trumpet group ranges from the piccolo trumpet—with the highest register in the brass family—to the bass trumpet, pitched one octave below the standard B♭ or C trumpet. ..."

"... The standard concert flute is pitched in C and has a range of three octaves starting from middle C or one half step lower when a B foot is attached. ..."

P.S. My experience with trumpet was short... I definitely do not have a lip for horns. Flute, yes.

 

[Don Hergert]

Is it normal though not to announce these things? "Hey, just fyi, if I call a C its actually Bb"? I remember talking to one of the sax guys after the set, asking about the pitch difference and he seemed completely oblivious to what I am talking about. Do people who play with brass intuitively know/assume this?

When I played banjo with a college jazz performance class, the instructor was kind enough to help out by explaining what the horns were doing. We were playing by ear and also using the Real Book (for C instruments) then and of course had some other sheet music to help. Once we understood what was going on we got along fine. As a rule I don't use a capo, so knowing the key names and where they are on the neck comes pretty naturally.

 

[Lo-E]

In my mind, I as instrumentalist, am responsible to know the correct pitch of the finger positions on my instruments.

You and I are of the same mind. Concert pitch is universal and if an instrument requires transposition that responsibility is on the player. They certainly shouldn’t be expecting the other band members to transpose so that they don’t have to.

Every horn player I’ve played with (admittedly not that many - maybe a dozen total?) used concert pitch to communicate with the rest of the band and read from charts that used the actual key.

While I have worked with a handful of guitarists who had no idea what chords they were playing (regardless of capos or downtuning), most of the guitar players I’ve played with knew their instruments and knew how they were tuned (the same goes for banjo and mandolin) so they could speak in actual keys when communicating with the rest of the band. There have been occasions where a guitarist tuned down a half-step and expected everyone else to read their minds, as you experienced, but I’ve made it a point not to play with them again.

 

[the_Ryan]

Your average woodwind player will transpose because he might have three different tunings to worry about. Eb, Bb and C. S the same concert pitch will have different fingerings between an Eb alto, Bb tenor and a C flute. Those with more knowledge and experience to the rest of the band. can talk in concert pitch

The other part of this is that wind instruments in the same family are standardized so when that going from one instrument to another (e.g. alto sax to tenor sax) you change the register you play in, but not the fingerings: a notated A in treble clef will always be the same fingering on any saxophone, even though on bari the sounding pitch will be a C an octave and a sixth below that, on tenor it’ll be a G a ninth below, on alto it’ll be a C a sixth below, and on soprano it’ll be a G a second below. In the example of this video he’s functionally doing the same thing: even though the sounding pitch is a half step down from what he’s playing (essentially making his guitar a transposing instrument in B), to converse with other guitarists it’s easier to treat it as though he’s just playing in drop D. To relate it back to double bass, if you’re performing a solo piece in solo tuning (low to high F#BEA) and not in standard tuning, you read the music as if you’re playing in orchestral tuning, but the sounding pitch will be a whole step higher.

Brass instruments get really weird with transpositions though: for trumpet and horn they’re almost always in B-flat or F respectively (at least these days, before valves they were kind of a hot mess), but trombone and tuba are always written in concert pitch even though trombone is technically a B-flat instrument and tubas can be in C, B-flat, F, or E-flat.

Ideally, players should be aware of how their instruments transpose and be able to switch between written and sounding pitch when communicating with other instrumentalists, and in the professional classical, jazz, and broadway worlds it’s pretty much a requirement.

 

[Killing Floor]

There’s 12 notes but we decree it’s 8 steps and we name them on a scale that inherently has 26 letters but we run out of letters at G.

If your objective every musician names notes incorrectly. It’s just an historically enforced bad habit.

And I can read it and compose. But that doesn’t mean I agree.

 

[the_Ryan]

Keep in mind that many if not most woodwind and brass instruments are available in a flatted tuning (ie: Bb, Eb, etc.) for jazz, as well as a concert tuning (ie: C, F, etc.) for orchestral music. Most jazz music for woodwind and brass is written in the flatted keys; most orchestral music for woodwind and brass is written in concert keys. Many players of these instruments have both kinds, so they can play in either environment. Thus there is less transposing for those instruments when playing music made for them.

In the orchestral world, trumpet is really the only common transposing instrument that has a C version, and it’s usually used in conjunction with B-flat trumpet because they do sound different from each other. Historically, before the advent of valves, the only way to play in different keys on trumpet and horn was to use different lengths of tubing, so the convention was to notate everything in C and specify the transposition of the instrument in the part. Nowadays, even when reading old parts, the only horns and trumpets in use are horns in F and trumpets in B-flat or C.

In the winds, the flute and oboe families are always in C (soprano flute, piccolo, oboe) or F (alto flute, English horn) instruments and clarinets are almost always in B-flat, E-flat, or A (soprano clarinet only usually). Even on the rare occasion saxophone is called for, they’re pretty much always notated in B-flat or E-flat.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

…

In the winds, the flute and oboe families are always in C (soprano flute, piccolo, oboe) or F (alto flute, English horn) instruments and clarinets are almost always in B-flat, E-flat, or A (soprano clarinet only usually). Even on the rare occasion saxophone is called for, they’re pretty much always notated in B-flat or E-flat.

Alto flute is in G with transposed notation!
Alto recorder is in F, but played from concert notation.
English horn is indeed in F with transposed notation.
There is no soprano flute. It‘s flute (only) or soprano recorder, two different instruments.
BTW, recorders play an octave higher than notated unless you use a tenor instrument for the soprano part, a bass instrument for the alto part etc.

 

[Groove Doctor]

The other part of this is that wind instruments in the same family are standardized so when that going from one instrument to another (e.g. alto sax to tenor sax) you change the register you play in, but not the fingerings: a notated A in treble clef will always be the same fingering on any saxophone, even though on bari the sounding pitch will be a C an octave and a sixth below that, on tenor it’ll be a G a ninth below, on alto it’ll be a C a sixth below, and on soprano it’ll be a G a second below. In the example of this video he’s functionally doing the same thing: even though the sounding pitch is a half step down from what he’s playing (essentially making his guitar a transposing instrument in B), to converse with other guitarists it’s easier to treat it as though he’s just playing in drop D. To relate it back to double bass, if you’re performing a solo piece in solo tuning (low to high F#BEA) and not in standard tuning, you read the music as if you’re playing in orchestral tuning, but the sounding pitch will be a whole step higher.

Brass instruments get really weird with transpositions though: for trumpet and horn they’re almost always in B-flat or F respectively (at least these days, before valves they were kind of a hot mess), but trombone and tuba are always written in concert pitch even though trombone is technically a B-flat instrument and tubas can be in C, B-flat, F, or E-flat.

Ideally, players should be aware of how their instruments transpose and be able to switch between written and sounding pitch when communicating with other instrumentalists, and in the professional classical, jazz, and broadway worlds it’s pretty much a requirement.

I played Euphonium (aka Baritone aka Tenor Tuba) in school band.
Treble clef music it was a Bb transposing instrument.
Bass Clef music it was at Concert Pitch.
Sometimes it would switch clefs mid song depending on the tune & how low/high I played.

Sooo confusing!!! Part of the reason I was happy to switch to guitar and bass.

And we haven’t even got into Alto Clef and Tenor Clef yet!!!

 

[Ron Lacey]

As a former trombone player and now a bassist and guitarist, I’ve always found this confusing. It seems to me that the whole issue of transposing instruments is related to convenience of notation, i.e. the notes are shifted so that the majority of those on the instrument fall on the staff and the amount of ledger lines needed above or below the staff is minimized. Am I off base here?

Also, if an Eb sax plays a written C, is the sound an Eb or is it the other way around, a written Eb results in a C pitch?

 

[the_Ryan]

As a former trombone player and now a bassist and guitarist, I’ve always found this confusing. It seems to me that the whole issue of transposing instruments is related to convenience of notation, i.e. the notes are shifted so that the majority of those on the instrument fall on the staff and the amount of ledger lines needed above or below the staff is minimized. Am I off base here?

Also, if an Eb sax plays a written C, is the sound an Eb or is it the other way around, a written Eb results in a C pitch?

Written C sounds like an E-flat.

 

[CFIrwin]

A few strange takes in this thread... I think it's fair to say that if you're bringing tunes to a session and expect horns to play them, you should prepare / find Eb and Bb charts. Not all horn players can transpose on the fly.

 

[Don Hergert]

I'm honestly sort of surprised, and really encouraged, that some horn players and former horn players are confused by this too. It seems like it's confusing to a lot of people. Thank you for speaking up about your experiences.

As has been discussed in this thread by some, perhaps the easiest way to play together between horns, reeds, woodwinds and strings, is to know your instrument and your music well enough to find the key being played -- by ear -- and then go forward from there...

That's probably the only reason I was able to get away with playing in a college jazz band for a number of years -- I came into this band situation with serious ear training from decades in bluegrass, and could use that to find my way around keys and through songs. Jazz -- even the primarily old jazz we were doing -- is more chord-complicated than most bluegrass music, but it was high energy and fun, and I was able to happily make my way through it.

I do have to say, my relatively short experience with trying to learn to play trumpet was a big learning experience... Aside from not having a lip, my impression is that horns in general are probably the most complicated and difficult instruments to learn how to play. I've played strings and a variety of flutes for years and they were just fun to pick up. The trumpet's combination of three buttons and a huge array of lip positions was just mind boggling for me. I have huge respect for horn players.

 

[notabene]

I think...non transposing- C melody saxes (I think thankfully not made since the"20's) lack the power of the tenor and the wonderful "edge" of the alto. Wretched instruments, thankfully long dead.
Saxes are written in different keys because they sound good in those "lengths" and , many of us double frequently. So we only have to learn one basic fingering set to double e.g. soprano, alto, tenor, and baritone saxes. For me, on tenor or soprano sax, there is no problem whatsoever with reading parts in C, but I've been at it a longtime and am totally comfortable with this. On alto, for me, the transposition is harder, but if alto sax were my instrument of first choice, I believe the transposition would be easy too.
I believe that trumpets in "c" are brighter sounding than trumpets in Bb, so the same issues of transposing apply.
Chord symbols are much easier to transpose than actual notes, incidentally.