Double Bass Needing some Help From The Upright String Experts (thanks in advance)

eneye

eneye

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Oct 29, 2011
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#1
Hi and thanks for reading/commenting.

Backstory:

I'm a seasoned electric player who bought a 1990-something 3/4 scale Engelhardt Ply double bass about 10 years ago on the cheap for the purpose of learning. Someone put more of a jazz action on it but the strings (probably nickel flatwounds) have always had a high tension making it a great bass to learn on (because it showed no mercy) but if I really wanted to keep the volume up with other acoustic instruments, it wouldn't be long before my fingers were blistered and bleeding. The bass is notoriously quiet (which I assume has more to do with the build) but even so those strings are stiff! It takes a lot of force to get those strings to talk even though the action was low.

I thought that was just the way it is -- and I've played a few uprights (even really expensive ones) that weren't much better until very recently: I played a friend's 1946 Epiphone plywood 3/4 scale upright. The setup was admittedly really nice and the bass resonated beautifully, but it also had these strings on that looked as though they were coated with some type of milky colored composite but I could see the windings through this composite. The strings felt outstanding. They had significantly more give and man did they sing, doing all the right things on the fretboard. I was playing lines on that bass I could never do on mine. Simply playing that bass, I felt I had jumped 5 years in my playing ability. My friend seemed to want to part with that bass and I'm seriously considering selling my Engelhardt in favor of the old Epiphone but before I do, I wanted to at least get some feedback on strings from you lovely people here!

Questions:

1) How big of a difference can strings make on even an average plywood upright?

2) I have no pics but any clue as to what those strings might have been?

3) Is it worth it for me to try strings before giving up on the Engelhardt?

Thanks again!
Evan
 
#2
sorry this may not be of too much help, BUT....

When you find an instrument that actually helps you make music and not fights you to make music...

You BUY it...

just get off your computer/iphone/ipad and go call the guy and Tell him you want to try the bass out for a week...


reason being, If you are correct that each note "sings" on that other bass, that means the bass has everything properly set right now and it seems to be settled in..

New strings on your bass will not allow notes to all the sudden sing... no matter how expensive or material the strings are made of...

remember, the bass either resonates correctly or not.. and it sounds like you just found one that does..

I know that feeling and when you say it makes you feel like you just jumped 5 years ahead, that's how it was supposed to feel when you started playing bass.. imagine that.. (if you had that instrument)

but instead, everybody learns on instruments that are beginner and not setup properly etc.. causing them to learn to fight the instrument to make music instead the instrument helping you create music..
 
#3
High tension steel strings aren't for me either, but that's another conversation.

1. Strings have a giant impact on an upright bass. They will change the voice, response, feel, and in some cases require setup adjustments. Changing strings is the quickest way to change the voice of your bass acoustically speaking.

2. The strings you speak of were probably a nylon/synthetic as we sometimes call them. Synthetic refers to synthetic gut - plastic strings made to emulate the feel and tension of real gut. Do a search on Innovation Slaps, Eurosonics, ...other TB'ers chime in here on the synthetics please. There are also hybrid strings with synthetic cores and metal windings that sort of split the difference between the two types.

3. It is worth trying different strings if you have steel strings on it now. The tension difference and playability between steel and synthetic or gut is night and day.

I disagree that high tension strings are great to learn pizz on, because obviously it has hindered you. Arco is a different story. Destroying your hands does not have to be a prerequisite to learning how to play a stringed instrument. It's also possible that your bass is set up poorly, so I would recommend both trying new strings and getting a qualified luthier to check your setup.

Do some string research, then sift through the classified ads here for used strings. We all try out strings, then sell or trade what we don't like at a loss. That way you aren't breaking the bank just to try something out. Be warned though, once you start trying out different strings - it will never stop. It's similar to drug addiction.

Your Engle may never sound off like a cannon if it's a student level instrument. There are limitations to entry level basses. You may however improve the playability and tone you are looking for with different strings - which may get you back to playing with enthusiasm again.
 
#4
bassfacer22 said:
sorry this may not be of too much help, BUT....

When you find an instrument that actually helps you make music and not fights you to make music...

You BUY it...

just get off your computer/iphone/ipad and go call the guy and Tell him you want to try the bass out for a week...


reason being, If you are correct that each note "sings" on that other bass, that means the bass has everything properly set right now and it seems to be settled in..

New strings on your bass will not allow notes to all the sudden sing... no matter how expensive or material the strings are made of...

remember, the bass either resonates correctly or not.. and it sounds like you just found one that does..

I know that feeling and when you say it makes you feel like you just jumped 5 years ahead, that's how it was supposed to feel when you started playing bass.. imagine that.. (if you had that instrument)

but instead, everybody learns on instruments that are beginner and not setup properly etc.. causing them to learn to fight the instrument to make music instead the instrument helping you create music..
Click to expand...

I definitely agree. I've listened to my heart many times on the electric side. Only took a risk once in ordering a bass and it ended up being my best sounding instrument and second best playing. If I can swing it within reason, I probably will. It was a real "red violin" moment with that old bass. Honestly it wasn't much to look at, even had some frontal damage that had been repaired around the bridge but that didn't seem to matter in terms of how it sounded or played. Thanks for your input!
 
#5
sevenyearsdown said:
High tension steel strings aren't for me either, but that's another conversation.

1. Strings have a giant impact on an upright bass. They will change the voice, response, feel, and in some cases require setup adjustments. Changing strings is the quickest way to change the voice of your bass acoustically speaking.

2. The strings you speak of were probably a nylon/synthetic as we sometimes call them. Synthetic refers to synthetic gut - plastic strings made to emulate the feel and tension of real gut. Do a search on Innovation Slaps, Eurosonics, ...other TB'ers chime in here on the synthetics please. There are also hybrid strings with synthetic cores and metal windings that sort of split the difference between the two types.

3. It is worth trying different strings if you have steel strings on it now. The tension difference and playability between steel and synthetic or gut is night and day.

I disagree that high tension strings are great to learn pizz on, because obviously it has hindered you. Arco is a different story. Destroying your hands does not have to be a prerequisite to learning how to play a stringed instrument. It's also possible that your bass is set up poorly, so I would recommend both trying new strings and getting a qualified luthier to check your setup.

Do some string research, then sift through the classified ads here for used strings. We all try out strings, then sell or trade what we don't like at a loss. That way you aren't breaking the bank just to try something out. Be warned though, once you start trying out different strings - it will never stop. It's similar to drug addiction.

Your Engle may never sound off like a cannon if it's a student level instrument. There are limitations to entry level basses. You may however improve the playability and tone you are looking for with different strings - which may get you back to playing with enthusiasm again.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your advice. It looks as though thus far I have two avenues of opinion but both are knowledgable. I think what I'm going to do is to see if I can track exactly what strings were on the Epiphone I played and I'll purchase those because I know I liked them.

It's funny because no one who plays that Engelhardt can get it to sing as much as I can and what I can get is a real challenge. I'll credit it for building up some serious strength but I can only sustain maybe 3 songs with it keeping up with other volumes before I hit a real wall.

The deal is I've been in the shed long enough that if I can get the right "feel" and setup, I'd like to try gigging with an upright. I have a few opportunities and if I can get something I feel confident I can work with, well that's the game.

I'll start looking into it!
 
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#6
eneye said:
Thanks for your advice.

It's funny because no one who plays that Engelhardt can get it to sing as much as I can and what I can get is a real challenge. I'll credit it for building up some serious strength but I can only sustain maybe 3 songs with it keeping up with other volumes before I hit a real wall.
Click to expand...

You're welcome.

BTW if you can only make it three songs before you hit the wall, you haven't built up anything. You've fought it for three songs, and it just won. It's like you're getting knocked out in the first round of 12 round fight at that point. This is of course assuming that you have put some serious study and skill drilling into it, and not just simply tried to learn a bunch of tunes to start. I'm not trying to discourage you at all, just giving an honest opinion based on experience.

Just to give a little perspective, I play 3 hour gigs routinely. While it whips my knees and back sometimes, my hands are rarely ever an issue unless it's a heat and hydration situation.

It is a physically difficult instrument to play. If you find the right strings and setup, don't try to take short cuts to get to the gig. You'll pay for it later. You have to get your instrument to play comfortably first though, or find one that does.
 
#7
A '40s Epi in good shape is a wonderful instrument that'll take care of you for the rest of your life. If you can give information on the string winding color at the tailpiece someone here can ID the strings definitively, but from your description I'd guess Eurosonics - really nice choice for roots/bluegrass/old school and very easy on the hands.

It might be a good idea to try different strings on your existing bass, as the $150 or so for Eurosonics is a relatively small investment and you can always keep them for backups and sell the Engelhart with the strings you're playing now. A lot of sound and playability is a function of setup and it's possible that some minor tweaks could help your existing instrument.

That said, there's a reason that Epiphones are coveted. I've put my '48 up against any number of Kays and never found anything I like better. YMMV.

Good luck with the search!
 
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#8
Three songs is not good at all. Three HOURS is sometimes not enough endurance, especially in jams where people tend to sit around playing for hours on end.

You need to get your mechanics and setup in order asap. If you're fighting the bass (what it sounds like) you're not playing at your best. It doesn't have to be crazy expensive either.

You should think about a string swap to nylon, which is what those other strings sound like. There are a bunch of strings that fit that profile, but if your setup is very low it might need to be adjusted for low tension strings. I'm using Silver Slaps by Innovation for low tension and reasonable <$200 cost, and a gut-style sound without paying $600 for new guts. Also hear good things about Eurosonics, but have only tried for 5 minutes one time. A higher setup really helps with volume - I have my E at 11mm and play 3 hour practices 2x weekly, plus time in the woodshed, and my hands never hurt. I play with a trio with a resonator, banjo, and fairly loud vocals and can keep up even at the highest volume at all-day event busking sessions where we might be playing for three morning/afternoon hours, an hour or two at dinner, and then 10-2 for the bar crowd.

Had a good thread about low tension/gut for my roots needs a couple weeks ago: American Roots without 1930's strings
 
#9
I found that my ES-9 likes low tension much better, and I use Kolstein Heritage strings to get there. They don't make it loud, but they play much more easily. You might also take a look at the soundpost position to get it to open up some more.
 
#10
Synthetic and gut core strings are stretchier than steel core strings and easier to press down, even with a higher action.

Eurosonics are steel core synthetic wound strings, less stretchy than synthetic core Innovation strings or Evah Pirazzi Weich or Obligato (or Kolstein Heritage).

Innovation Silver Slaps are a good choice for a lower tension string.
 
#13
DoubleMIDI said:
Synthetic and gut core strings are stretchier than steel core strings and easier to press down, even with a higher action.

Eurosonics are steel core synthetic wound strings, less stretchy than synthetic core Innovation strings or Evah Pirazzi Weich or Obligato (or Kolstein Heritage).
Click to expand...



Not my experience at all. On my bass, Eurosonics feel about the same tension as Innovation Super Silvers (my current favorite, but that can change in a heartbeat), both decidedly easier-playing than either Evah weichs or Oblis. YMMV.
 
#14
Eurosonics (= Presto Nylonwounds) come in different weights which translate to different tensions. The lighter ones might have less tension than Evah Weich or Obligato. But the point is they are still steel core strings.

My experience is that I get blisters with my pizz playing style with light to medium tension steel core strings after a while. I do not get them with synthetic core strings. So I think synthetic core strings are easier for bass guitar players as a first choice. They might try lighter steel core strings later, but to avoid blisters in the beginning, synthetic core strings (with not too much tension) might be a better choice in the beginning than steel core strings.
These is for players pulling the string, not for those who rather touch the string than pulling them away pizz.
 
#17
Povl, that sounds like advertising language. I might ask Jonas about that.

If there is silk and steel in the core, the silk would be stretchier than the steel, so the steel holds the tension, not the silk. The silk might damp and it is a standard construction to use a silk wrap to damp the string vibration.

I have a set of Presto Jazzicato, which are similar to the Nylonwounds/Eurosonics and I like the Innovation Silver Slaps better. But since both are almost pizz only strings I use something else myself.

If somebody else can do three hour gigs with Eurosonics, OK. I can do that easily with Innovation Silver Slaps and Braided.
 
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