New “loudest show I’ve ever been to”: Billie Eilish

#62
klattman said:
Why does the kick drum have to be an order of magnitude above everything else.
Seems like the only purpose is to damage hearing.
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Because putting a mic inside what is already a loud sound source is easy to make louder with any somewhat decent PA system. What is harder to do is actually create a real well balanced of all the input sources,
 
#63
There’s no excuse for it. Any band that plays so loud it’s physically painful to be in the room is just inviting people to walk out. I’ve only had to do that once, Santana in the early 80’s. So loud the PA system was clipping. like having ice picks jabbed into your eardrums. Awful.
 
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#64
klattman said:
Why does the kick drum have to be an order of magnitude above everything else.
Seems like the only purpose is to damage hearing.
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Modern subs are pretty good - imagine having all that power and not using it ;). On a more serious note, pushing lows is an easy way to make the mix seem louder than it is. Most loudness metrics are still typically A-weighted, I believe, so you can dial in more bottom in situations where you're SPL limited.

Also, while every frequency can damage hearing, high mids are the most dangerous frequency range according to studies, if I recall correctly. Boomy mixes suck, but I find them infinitely preferable to overly bright mixes that are just downright painful. A common theory is that veteran touring sound engineers might have significantly reduced hearing in that range at this point. Doesn't help that most sources tend to have a too much energy in the 3kHz area, which can become painful when amplified to concert levels.

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#67
friskinator said:
I’ve never understood the point of the insane volume at live shows. How did that standard even begin?
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I guess one thing is people enjoying the thrill of feeling the music with their bodies (young people these days are mostly an EDM/Hip Hop crowd I think) and over time that becomes the expectation for all types of shows...

Another thing is that to have a balanced mix everything has to be brought up to parity with the loudest thing in the room. People are kinda loud, especially drunk people. If the crowd is 85dB(A) idle, you now have to run the show at something like 95-100dB and have the subs match the tops. Even worse if there's a large area to cover and you kinda have to try push sound through people (not a good idea). There's a reason people are expected to STFU at classical concerts.

In small venues it's also acoustic cymbals that define the baseline volume of the show. So you can blame the dumbass bringing thick "projection" cymbals to a bar/club gig for your tinnitus.
 
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#68
Windreaper said:
I guess one thing is people enjoying the thrill of feeling the music with their bodies (young people these days are mostly an EDM/Hip Hop crowd I think) and over time that becomes that expectation for all types of shows...

Another thing is that to have a balanced mix everything has to be brought up to parity with the loudest thing in the room. People are kinda loud, especially drunk people. If the crowd is 85dB(A) idle, you now have to run the show at something like 95-100dB and have the subs match the tops. Even worse if there's a large area to cover and you kinda have to try push sound through people (not a good idea). There's a reason people are expected to STFU at classical concerts.

In small venues it's also acoustic cymbals that define the baseline volume of the show. So you can blame the dumbass bringing thick "projection" cymbals to a bar/club gig for your tinnitus.
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Yeah, even rooms with no music and a lot of people talking can get loud. There are a lot of restaurants in my city that I won't go to anymore because of the volume level. A local magazine actually did a story on that recently, and I wasn't surprised to see what the actual dB level was at some of them. I can accept that at a music show since I know what to expect going in, but I really don't want to have to wear earplugs at dinner.
 
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#69
friskinator said:
Yeah, even rooms with no music and a lot of people talking can get loud. There are a lot of restaurants in my city that I won't go to anymore because of the volume level. A local magazine actually did a story on that recently, and I wasn't surprised to see what the actual dB level was at some of them. I can accept that at a music show since I know what to expect going in, but I really don't want to have to wear earplugs at dinner.
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This is a consideration before we try any restaurant now. I hate sitting down and realizing I cannot hear the person on the other side of the table.

The loudest thing I've been to lately was Fenway Park. Some of the 'in-game fan experience' was painfully loud. 'Shipping Up to Boston's blasted at ear-shattering levels through an inadequate, distorted PA system. Ouch.
 
#70
GRAND FUNK RAILROAD, billed as "The Loudest Rock n' Roll Band in the World!". October 10th, 1971, Cincinnati Gardens (11,000 seats). Seated seventeen rows from the stage. I was only 15 at the time, and couldn't understand anything my teachers said for days afterwards. I've worn hearing aids for a couple of decades now. My best friend was with me, and suffered from tinnitus and total hearing loss before he passed.
 
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#72
You know it's loud if the guys doing tracks in the bathroom cannot shoot properly. CBGB - most punk and rock shows when they were still open. My son attended am EDM show in Germany and he was glad he had some ear plugs that my wife packed for him. We have been bringing him to reggae and jam band shows since he was little with ear plugs and he said that one was over the top. I usually watch jazz or jazz fusion and when I can afford it classical music even before I got old.


When my kids were in gymnastics, the parents made money for the team by selling beer through the venue and I got to watch for 6 years all manner of bands and the loudest to me was SlipKnot., louder than the Metal Fest a week before them,. Neil Young was also pretty loud, I did not expect that. compared that to Journey. Pantheta, Motley, Kiss, Journey. etc. The parents I worked with agree. That night I went ahead and left before his last set ( we usually do not sell beer by then) .

What was all engulfing but not painfully loud was Kitaro as well as Pink Floyd in Raleigh NC, but this was in the 90's.

Most balanced FOH was James Taylor and Pat Methenry group. What a pleasure when that happens.
 
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#73
MIMike said:
I think in general live music is too loud. Now, I’m old, so there is that, but since power has become almost unlimited in recent years with the technology we have, it has become unnecessarily loud, especially in the sub frequencies. The kick drum does NOT need to be the loudest instrument in the mix, yet it almost always is.
I haven’t been to a lot of shows over the last 10 years, but I would say only about 10% of them had a decent mix that didn’t overpower most everything else with the subs.
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I hate kick drum mixes with a fiery passion, unfortunately I am a serious minority, apparently.
 
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#74
J-Bass RMR said:
Of the 3 "bigger shows" we attended this summer; 2 were in my top 5 all-time for sound.

Plant & Krauss;
Outdoors. Incredible mix. Volume was unexpectedly "mild" - never needed our attenuators.
Probably the most "enjoyable" show in years

Lyle Lovett;
Indoors. Fantastic mix. For the 1st minute, I was waiting for the low frequencies to be brought up, but it never happened.
Then I listened for a moment, and there it was; Lee's bass as clear as day, and the Kick (and drums) each occupying its own space - like a painting on a canvas.
We're just so use to being bombarded with disproportionate, exaggerate low frequency, it seems odd when it's not there.
I don't know if there was anything below 80hz, and I actually wouldn't have minded a bit more lows, but choosing between the potential for "mud" in an indoor venue vs. clarity, I was happy for the mix the way it was.

Tedeschi Trucks;
Outdoors. We were sitting at the back right corner of the sound "box"
Opening band was likely pretty good, but it was the typical loud, bombastic mix and the bass was unintelligible.
TT was better from a volume perspective at 1st, but just ok overall, with the bass being a bit buried and muddy in the mix, and the volume became louder / fatiguing as the evening went on. Great show - but dissappointing production, especailly given it was outdoors.

Clearly, the 1st 2 shows should be the model for modern sound.
Apparently, even with all the advances over the past few decades, once again, we fail to learn lessons from the past.

Loudest;
Front Row - Hells Bells 1980. (that 🤬 Bell!)
I could barely hear the next day at school, and my ears rang almost all week!
I was worried about playing an upcoming gig the next weekend and having permanent hearing damage. I got lucky....
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DO you live near DC? I saw all 3 of those shows. P&K was ridiculously good and Wolf Trap has stellar sound (assuming that I'm doxing you correctly)
 
#75
My 1st real concert was my favorite band at the time, AC/DC. I was 20 rows back. I don't remmeber it being loud at all but I couldn't hear my dad talking to me over the EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE of my ears rining, which were ringing the next day. I was hyped though so it didn't seem loud. When the cannon went off during For Those About To Rock, I ducked.
Hot Tuna outdoors. !!!!!!!!!. An acoustic guitar and bass.
Mike Gordon's band at the State Theeatre (500-1000 seater???) the kick was intolerable, couldn't handle it. Had to leave
Phil (Lesh) and friends at a 15k seater, he broke my left ear. So bloody loud. I was up top in bad seats and I thought the lights on the ceiling were loose or something. Totally stupid but it's all my brain could come up with at the time, because over the music, I could hear something rattling around. Turns out it was left ear. R.I.P. my ear, and Phil Lesh
 
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