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I think in general, ascribing words like 'phases', 'progressions', 'movements' ... for almost any cultural phenomenon only works in retrospect, and even then the lines are blurry when looking closely.
But for fun, art tends to change with a cultures values. So what values are currently in a state of flux?
I think the oscillation / clash between modernism and post modernism has been going on for a long time (20 years) now and has produced a smorgasbord of detached and intimate, cynical and spiritual, technical and simple music all at the same time, I can't see this changing unless a new overriding value system takes hold en mass; and is that even possible anymore?
All I know about 'popular' music is the best stuff played late at night
But for fun, art tends to change with a cultures values. So what values are currently in a state of flux?
I think the oscillation / clash between modernism and post modernism has been going on for a long time (20 years) now and has produced a smorgasbord of detached and intimate, cynical and spiritual, technical and simple music all at the same time, I can't see this changing unless a new overriding value system takes hold en mass; and is that even possible anymore?
All I know about 'popular' music is the best stuff played late at night
Massive paraphrase: modern, homogenous, following a set of proven formulas, computer lab style of creation, lacking in melody, supplanting your generation, DAW produced music made by music makers rather than musicians and music producers rather than record producers. Are you really trying to understand this music? You sound like me trying to understand why people need 15 basses … “I can’t and it’s dumb” (to paraphrase myself).
As far as one chord songs go, I think they’ve been around for a while.
The negative posture I referred to was in post #18.
That is indeed a massive paraphrase. My original post was not about modern popular music today. It is about what popular music will be in the future, the next phase. Most of the comments in the thread are about modern pop music, now. I say that without judgement, it's part of the discussion. Many are negative, and I did chime in with regard to a personal opinion about listening to entire song with no changes, and how that has become something I don't do anymore. Not all pop songs fit into this category, by the way. I am optimistic about the future.
You mentioned "technology will continue having a larger and larger impact." That statement drove a lot of my comments. It's one of the few suggestions somebody made of where we are actually headed. I keep up on this. I am willing to discuss it, and I mentioned a lot of what I understand going on today. It is INTERESTING. FASCINATING even. It's incredibly interesting that Charlie Puth laid down a respected bassline in the manner he did. It made me put down my bass and do one in a DAW. The level of technology we have now is so incredible, that the only think I can think of is greater implementation of AI. I am interested in hearing other details of the greater impact of technology, if anybody knows them. I have no intention of starting a thread on AI. I have been really working to understand a new breed of "music makers", as I heard them called. I am expecting that the young people, many with a different set of skills and abilities than in the past, will be responsible for the future of pop music. It is really interesting that a music store now uses a new title for its patrons, because maybe "musicians" is a misnomer and doesn't apply to their customers like it used to. You posted a video of the Jessica Povone String Ensemble, do you really think music similar to this could move into the top 40 charts? Is this what some of the aspiring music makers might bring to us? That is what I wanted to discuss in the thread.
A lot of comments in the thread are about complaints and problems people have about modern popular music. As I mentioned, I am guilty of chiming in. I think this may be important to the discussion. No matter what any of us like or dislike about popular music, people will get tired/sick of/bored of the current trends, young and old alike, and popular music is going to change. Guaranteed. This boredom of the "sameness" is what always drives the change in music, so maybe it's important to discuss what people are tiring of. The things that the pop music audience has heard too much of are the ones most likely to get tossed aside and replaced with different things.
I am really interested in what those different things are. What might disappear or diminish, what might be brought in to a greater degree. I am really trying to understand the music.
You mentioned "technology will continue having a larger and larger impact." That statement drove a lot of my comments. It's one of the few suggestions somebody made of where we are actually headed. I keep up on this. I am willing to discuss it, and I mentioned a lot of what I understand going on today. It is INTERESTING. FASCINATING even. It's incredibly interesting that Charlie Puth laid down a respected bassline in the manner he did. It made me put down my bass and do one in a DAW. The level of technology we have now is so incredible, that the only think I can think of is greater implementation of AI. I am interested in hearing other details of the greater impact of technology, if anybody knows them. I have no intention of starting a thread on AI. I have been really working to understand a new breed of "music makers", as I heard them called. I am expecting that the young people, many with a different set of skills and abilities than in the past, will be responsible for the future of pop music. It is really interesting that a music store now uses a new title for its patrons, because maybe "musicians" is a misnomer and doesn't apply to their customers like it used to. You posted a video of the Jessica Povone String Ensemble, do you really think music similar to this could move into the top 40 charts? Is this what some of the aspiring music makers might bring to us? That is what I wanted to discuss in the thread.
A lot of comments in the thread are about complaints and problems people have about modern popular music. As I mentioned, I am guilty of chiming in. I think this may be important to the discussion. No matter what any of us like or dislike about popular music, people will get tired/sick of/bored of the current trends, young and old alike, and popular music is going to change. Guaranteed. This boredom of the "sameness" is what always drives the change in music, so maybe it's important to discuss what people are tiring of. The things that the pop music audience has heard too much of are the ones most likely to get tossed aside and replaced with different things.
I am really interested in what those different things are. What might disappear or diminish, what might be brought in to a greater degree. I am really trying to understand the music.
I think about where music is headed in regards to our instrument.
My crystal ball is hazy and definitely biased but, I see more collaborations between monster upright bass players like Edgar Meyer and Paul Kowert playing a more classical and jazz with other very talented acoustic instrumentalists.
When you see "Live from Here" with the Punch Brothers and other talented guests from other genres, the music is top notch and all the musicians seem to enjoy it.
My crystal ball is hazy and definitely biased but, I see more collaborations between monster upright bass players like Edgar Meyer and Paul Kowert playing a more classical and jazz with other very talented acoustic instrumentalists.
When you see "Live from Here" with the Punch Brothers and other talented guests from other genres, the music is top notch and all the musicians seem to enjoy it.
Playing in cover bands, I really enjoy it when I can genuinely entertain people and the song is really simple to play. It just makes my life easier. For that reason, I love some of these newer songs.
I see great music in the progressive bluegrass field with groups like Punch Brothers, Hawktail, and Yo-Yo Ma's Goat Rodeo and Silk Road ventures (the latter is truly "world music"). I am not saying that flashing lights, choreographed dancers, etc. is evil or anything, but I personally avoid it like the plague. I want to hear great musicians playing great music live without all the trappings. I think great music will always be a bit "underground", but as long as it isn't too far under the surface to be found, it's all good with me!
I may have sidetracked that by getting interested in the classical music part of your post and what I took as a general question at the end about where music is headed.
I think it is a unavoidable expectation. I just don't think it determines the kind of music that will be made or listened to. But who knows. Perhaps AI will eventually be able to create music on the fly to fit each listeners momentary mood. Maybe we'll be able to share "our creations" with our friends and rebuild the music community that's disappeared. But most existing music I play for people gets me a strange look and the question "is that music?"
Not in any world I could predict.
As I said above, I thought the final question in your post related to music in general. Music is a cultural good. I mentioned climate change because it has the potential to change cultures. I listened to the complete video a few days ago, but I mentioned it more tongue-in-cheek for a world where we might prize conserving coolness (temperature) above all. The changing attention spans of the younger generations might also cause changes to music and music listening that us now-calcified-brained children of the 60s or 70s won't understand at all. But what kinds? Beats me. (DAW created mono-chorded jingles? -Nooooo!)I don't listen to much pop music. I hang to the illusion that musicians are artist with artistic integrity and strive to produce music that builds on the past but strive to add something personal. I'm not even sure that popular music changes because people get bored. I suspect it is because a new generation people, that don't already own all the music they like, becomes the target for the pop music machine. Giraffe's necks don't get longer because the food is higher on the trees. They get longer because the shorter necked giraffes die off and the ones remaining have longer necks. I think it is the same with pop music listeners.
Cheers!
The rise in classical music is what I think is that schools are accessible to all youth and adults to learn classical music no matter where they are, music education is currently goaled to help all those play music and is really great today IMO. I still love classical but was turned off by it seeing the elitism sadly still exist in classic music today. Classical music has historically been nobleman music or church music. Rarely were peasants, serfs allowed to partake in it unless they somehow were able to afford to play an instrument. Nobleman would play instruments for fun and enjoy classical music, hence the French origins of ameatur meaning "to love". This is all over the place for time periods, I am mostly reference to at least the very late medieval times and rise of renaissance and all the way through those times till I guess oh 1800s? so 1600s roughly to 1800s at least classical music has always historically had this meaning,(Feel free to correct me at all anyone who knows better, love to hear it!) I'm more of a folk music or cultural roots type of listener these days since you learn a lot more about people and culture deeply. Classical music being on the rise in my honest opinion is more people getting access to instruments which is a very good thing, it's also the reason why there's rise in Indie bands and preferences for those genres instead because it's very "garage" sounding.
Anyway my mini-history point is, music has always been shifting but also what we see from books isn't always the case. Yeah classical music was the "stuff" back in those eras, but there was tons of folk music, think Irish session, Early American folk, Sicilian folk using classical instruments but a very different form of playing (which was looked down upon and viewed as vile by classical players way back then ironically!) So I think you'll never truly know and you have to dig super deep. I mean look at Delta Blues, it's the true origins of Rock and Roll, but a lot of people disliked it and thought it wasn't the music for them at that time. Now look at rock today...
So where is the next phase of music? I don't like Pop being generalized because pop can rapidly change or literally be any songs on the top. I also think with the internet giving expansive help to others to learn instruments, it's changing things. I mean I'm only 22 I literally remember finding nothing good on learning bass on youtube when I was like... 12 I wanna say? Now I see stuff all over! (Which is awesome!) I personally think music is heading towards garage indie, shoegaze, but also Thee Oh Sees type of Indie with a surfer twist or punkish twist. I also do not think everyone will sound alike. Tame Impala has helped inspire a vintage rise somewhat, I mean he's on the radio for a start. Do I have hardcore data to back this up? No, just my 2 cents and just my age and what I notice around my generation, but just like how we viewed Classical music being a dominated music of the past in Europe when in reality behind the doors, behind other people really folk music or the folk music of that country really dominated but was never really documented that much or given respect at that time, much of it was oral tradition, similar to what we see on the internet and even with the Blues. Anyway thanks for reading my long jumble! Have a good day all!
Anyway my mini-history point is, music has always been shifting but also what we see from books isn't always the case. Yeah classical music was the "stuff" back in those eras, but there was tons of folk music, think Irish session, Early American folk, Sicilian folk using classical instruments but a very different form of playing (which was looked down upon and viewed as vile by classical players way back then ironically!) So I think you'll never truly know and you have to dig super deep. I mean look at Delta Blues, it's the true origins of Rock and Roll, but a lot of people disliked it and thought it wasn't the music for them at that time. Now look at rock today...
So where is the next phase of music? I don't like Pop being generalized because pop can rapidly change or literally be any songs on the top. I also think with the internet giving expansive help to others to learn instruments, it's changing things. I mean I'm only 22 I literally remember finding nothing good on learning bass on youtube when I was like... 12 I wanna say? Now I see stuff all over! (Which is awesome!) I personally think music is heading towards garage indie, shoegaze, but also Thee Oh Sees type of Indie with a surfer twist or punkish twist. I also do not think everyone will sound alike. Tame Impala has helped inspire a vintage rise somewhat, I mean he's on the radio for a start. Do I have hardcore data to back this up? No, just my 2 cents and just my age and what I notice around my generation, but just like how we viewed Classical music being a dominated music of the past in Europe when in reality behind the doors, behind other people really folk music or the folk music of that country really dominated but was never really documented that much or given respect at that time, much of it was oral tradition, similar to what we see on the internet and even with the Blues. Anyway thanks for reading my long jumble! Have a good day all!
Somehow I must have missed this. Are there really popular songs today with only one chord? Lol. Can you give me an example of this? I am not even sure I can imagine how this would sound.
I had heard about Sonny & Cher coming into the studio with a one chord song and the house band (incl Carol Kaye) having to figure out how to make it interesting. Also knew that a lot of early blues were one chord songs. A quick search gave these additional examples:
Sonny and Cher: The Beat Goes On
CCR: Run Through the Jungle
Harry Nilsson: Coconut and Jump into the Fire
Bob Marley & The Wailers: Get Up, Stand Up
Bob Dylan: Political World, It's All Good and Tin Angel
I listened to a couple, and though it's strange to be suspended in one chord, they make it work.
On a somewhat related topic, I also read an article about how less people of Gen Z are interested in music. Is there any consensus about that on TalkBass? It doesn't sound right to me. When I was younger, I don't believe I ever met somebody who was not interested in music. I could see how that might have quite an impact on music in the future.
I think it is because most of the time they don't listen to music with other people. It is more like brushing your teeth, we all do it, we all do it alone, we don't talk about it to discuss toothbrushes or floss types.
You can look at the history of music and see a cycle of innovation and complexity. When people are focused on innovation - whether that be in technology, genre, or theory - the the ensembles get smaller and the orchestrations get simpler. People need to hear new things in a simplified way to grasp on to it and develop an ear for it. Once people are familiar with the new things, they desire greater complexity so the ensembles get bigger and textures get richer, with full classical orchestration being a maximally complex format. Then some innovation occurs, and things get stripped down again, rinse, repeat. When you hear about artists who were "ahead of their time," they were usually just a little off of this cycle in one way or another - either making new things too complex too quickly for people to catch on to, or making some fundamental innovation when people weren't interested in it.
All that to say, I'm not surprised people desire bigger textures and rich orchestration right now, because the last 30 years has been all about innovation in technology and genre, stripped-down textures, and simplification. It's well about time for people to start focusing on building all these new things up into more complex and challenging forms.
All that to say, I'm not surprised people desire bigger textures and rich orchestration right now, because the last 30 years has been all about innovation in technology and genre, stripped-down textures, and simplification. It's well about time for people to start focusing on building all these new things up into more complex and challenging forms.
I have a sibling who surprised me in our 50s by making reference to the fact that he was listening to Simon & Garfield and Dire Straits. It was a surprise because I had no recollection to him ever caring about music. That said, he wasn’t a normal kid, rather genius and didn’t aspire to having lots of friends.
And on a funny personal note, growing up in So. Cal. I can remember the moment in school when I realized the (ancient) Egyptians didn’t ride skateboards.
I don’t understand it either. Perhaps we grew up in a special time where a lot was happening musically, music played a big part in social changes in the 60s, and it didn’t have as much competition for our attention as it does now.
Say it isn't so. Now I feel like my whole understanding of world history may be wrong.
I am always surprised at how popular free jazz and improvised music actually is, it seems to be stronger than ever. There is no reason I should have a "career" with a full touring schedule due to the extreme choices I have made, but I do!
While it won't ever be mainstream, more and more people are finding their way to it.
There are a few issues with current pop that make it different:
1. They have degraded the listening situations with phone speakers, bluetooth and low quality streams. Even Ratt or Bon Jovi albums were engineered to sound great on a good stereo. Now, the music has to be engineered for lofi listening.
So, make no mistake: Pop music in general is far worse.
2. While all generations have a bit of anti-elder / "kill your father" ethos, the current one has taken it to new levels. Even the jazz players and improvisors are into groups with peers with cutesy names. We might have been against what our parents had to say but we respected earlier and elder musicians. There is an old saying that each generation thinks they invented sex - this one thinks they invented everything!
The way music is put forward is far more decentralized. There is no tightly controlled direct line from radio station to record store as in the old days. Someone with no curiosity can certainly be force-fed whatever is marketed to them, but it is pretty easy to find your own way to what you really want to hear.
While it won't ever be mainstream, more and more people are finding their way to it.
There are a few issues with current pop that make it different:
1. They have degraded the listening situations with phone speakers, bluetooth and low quality streams. Even Ratt or Bon Jovi albums were engineered to sound great on a good stereo. Now, the music has to be engineered for lofi listening.
So, make no mistake: Pop music in general is far worse.
2. While all generations have a bit of anti-elder / "kill your father" ethos, the current one has taken it to new levels. Even the jazz players and improvisors are into groups with peers with cutesy names. We might have been against what our parents had to say but we respected earlier and elder musicians. There is an old saying that each generation thinks they invented sex - this one thinks they invented everything!
The way music is put forward is far more decentralized. There is no tightly controlled direct line from radio station to record store as in the old days. Someone with no curiosity can certainly be force-fed whatever is marketed to them, but it is pretty easy to find your own way to what you really want to hear.
Say it isn't so. Now I feel like my whole understanding of world history may be wrong.
Unfortunately for me, I'm not sure the knowledge I replaced that with was any more accurate.
But it goes to show that things do change, in spite of that catchy saying that says they stay the same.
I disagree in that I think the recording quality of music right now is universally extremely high, by any standard. The technology has just gotten so good in the past 20 years, you literally gotta be trying to make a bad recording. The biggest modern degradation - which I think is a true curse and abomination - is the "loudness wars" and massive compression of everything. The main thing recordings lack now is dynamics, because everything is mixed for earbuds and car stereos. Everything being one consistent volume makes sense in headphones, cars, and even at a dance club - but now everything is like that, all recordings, all live music. That genuinely makes new pop music exhausting to listen to for long periods of time, and I think we are all losing our ear for dynamics, and our kids maybe won't develop any appreciation for it at all.