Double Bass Old-time/string band bass

[mikeoso]

Due to covid, plus August vacations and other stuff, our jam was pretty thin last night. Two fiddles (one so soft you couldnt hear), two harmonicas, one pretty quiet mando, and me on bass.

Fiddle-bass duets arent real interesting. Nevertheless, we persevere. Reckon I'll take a guitar along next week.

 

[Ed S]

Due to covid, plus August vacations and other stuff, our jam was pretty thin last night. ...

Curiously, our jam has been bigger than ever recently. 20+ w/ lots of newcomers. I suspect folk are desparate for things to do after last year.

I've been the only bass. Normally, I appreciated that. But w/ a big circle and folk unfamiliar w/ how to lead songs, it is A LOT of work. I find myself moving around the circle, so as to be able to key in on whomever is leading a song (however ineptly!) And I'm having to concentrate intensely on nearly every song. Just weird - I'm finding myself mentally AND physically exhausted after 3.5 hours, whereas I used to be able to go 5 hrs no problem

...
Fiddle-bass duets arent real interesting. Nevertheless, we persevere. Reckon I'll take a guitar along next week.

Yeah, I understand that thought. But to suggest a different facet, my wife plays fiddle, so until I picked up banjo 2 years ago, bass/fiddle was our standard combo. Yeah, it gets old just to hammer 1/5s and to force the fiddle to take lead on EVERY rep of EVERY song. So I used that as incentive to expand what I could bring to the table, taking leads, trying more varied accompaniments, using the bow... Can be a worthwhil echalenge.

And our string band started when I invited 1 mando picker over so we could work on tunes. He played mando/banjo/guitar, but I wanted to do more than thump behind him. The we invited a cello, and personnel changed over time. So, I'm just saying, it is WONDERFUL when the personnel is exactly what you prefer. But if you just tweak your mindset, you can find opportunities, challenges, and satisfaction from just about any combination of well-intentioned instrumentation.

 

[mikeoso]

Curiously, our jam has been bigger than ever recently. 20+ w/ lots of newcomers. I suspect folk are desparate for things to do after last year.

I've been the only bass. Normally, I appreciated that. But w/ a big circle and folk unfamiliar w/ how to lead songs, it is A LOT of work. I find myself moving around the circle, so as to be able to key in on whomever is leading a song (however ineptly!) And I'm having to concentrate intensely on nearly every song. Just weird - I'm finding myself mentally AND physically exhausted after 3.5 hours, whereas I used to be able to go 5 hrs no problem



Yeah, I understand that thought. But to suggest a different facet, my wife plays fiddle, so until I picked up banjo 2 years ago, bass/fiddle was our standard combo. Yeah, it gets old just to hammer 1/5s and to force the fiddle to take lead on EVERY rep of EVERY song. So I used that as incentive to expand what I could bring to the table, taking leads, trying more varied accompaniments, using the bow... Can be a worthwhil echalenge.

And our string band started when I invited 1 mando picker over so we could work on tunes. He played mando/banjo/guitar, but I wanted to do more than thump behind him. The we invited a cello, and personnel changed over time. So, I'm just saying, it is WONDERFUL when the personnel is exactly what you prefer. But if you just tweak your mindset, you can find opportunities, challenges, and satisfaction from just about any combination of well-intentioned instrumentation.

All completely true. If I were a more competent bassist, the possibilities would be endless. As it is, doing the 1 5 is about what I can handle, though I get a nice descending run on Whiskey Before Breakfast.

 

[Ed S]

Funny you mention Whiskey. When I started with this jam group 7-8 years ago, the regulars were well ahead of me. They welcomed me purely as a roleplaying thumper (which role I still primarily fill.) Each week I'd learn another 1-2 of their regular songs, so the next week I would suck just a little bit less.

Whiskey was one of those. One fiddler likes to play it, "With a little air under it!" I worked out a nice little line, but playing it to speed was pretty much at my breaking point. 3-4 years later, it was just another tune solidly within my wheelhouse.

Same when I started playing w/ my wife, and w/ the mando picker. Just figure little things to try, then revery to your wheelhouse. Some things will work, others won't. But each new thing will suck a little less and less each time you repeat it. Before you know it, you'll have a ton of things you just do as 2d nature w/o thinking about it. Tho - if you are like me - you'll remain humble, thinking about the many more things you still cannot do...

It never ends, my friend!

 

[Jason Sypher]

Due to covid, plus August vacations and other stuff, our jam was pretty thin last night. Two fiddles (one so soft you couldnt hear), two harmonicas, one pretty quiet mando, and me on bass.

Fiddle-bass duets arent real interesting. Nevertheless, we persevere. Reckon I'll take a guitar along next week.

They can be! But you might have to change up the roles, play the melodies, bow the harmonies, syncopate the rhythms even strum the bass. Regarding the sound levels, if there are instruments that are quiet I suggest coming down to their level rather than play over them. I used to feel responsible to hold the whole thing together and would over-compensate for weak players but over the years I find the opposite approach can bear more fruit. Try to match their level and integrate the two voices. You may find a groove in there if you look. Players sometimes just play quiet out of fear but meeting their dynamic can make them feel more comfortable and let them know you are there as a team and the job is to build a foundation. Some players don't really understand how a rhythm section works. Sometimes players don't realize that they are part of the rhythm section. But if you are playing duets, for example, you are both the rhythm section and the melody player and everything in between. Therein lies the challenge.

 

[Ed S]

I used to do a lot of martial arts. One time I was complaining to my teacher about a difficult sparring partner. I expected him to sympathize w/ me, but instead he got on my case saying I should be able to learn something from every session w/ any partner, no matter what their level of skill.

That advice has served me well decades after I threw my last punch.

 

[mikeoso]

Been a couple years, so I thought to kick this thread back open. Maybe we have some recent arrivals on TB that didnt know there was a thread for OT.

We still have a good weekly jam circle, and have been drawing in some new young players lately.

 

[Ed S]

Oh my - the dreaded hammered dulcimer!

 

[mooseonbass]

I've decided to post this in the bluegrass forum since it's the closest thing available here to old-time.

Anyway, are there any old-time bass players here? I joined an old-time band back in May and it's been a great learning experience for me and I love the music. Simple (at least as far as my playing usually goes), but emotive. I've been listening to alot of Dirk Powell, Tim O'Brien, and Foghorn Stringband.

There's no bluegrass or old-time bass teachers in my area as far as I know, so there's not a real good way to learn more about the genre. Bluegrass is similar, but there seems to be a few differences.

I suppose that even though old-time doesn't traditionally utilize much slap, I should get that technique happening anyway.

Any other bassists jam any old-time out there that want to chime in?

Just curious, are the Fiddlers of the Genessee still around? I played with them a couple of times many years ago.

 

[Ed S]

Curious - what about your jam makes you call it oldtime? Do you play all tunes in a certain key? Repeat each song many times? Prohibit resonator banjos?

For whatever reason, a lot of folk call our jam BG, when BG tunes make up well under a quarter of the tunes we play.

 

[turf3]

Curious - what about your jam makes you call it oldtime? Do you play all tunes in a certain key? Repeat each song many times? Prohibit resonator banjos?

For whatever reason, a lot of folk call our jam BG, when BG tunes make up well under a quarter of the tunes we play.

Around here the distinction seems to be whether people take solos or not. There's considerable overlap in repertoire, but performance practice is different. People often play fiddle tunes in BG jams, but with solos. I've also heard, occasionally, tunes more commonly associated with BG, or even country, in old time sessions, played in the old time way.

 

[Ed S]

Yeah, I remember one time I went to what IIRC was billed as a folk jam, and I led something like Rolling in My Sweet Baby's Arms and said something like, "Take it, fiddle!" And the guitarist said something along the lines of, "We don't DO that sort of thing here!"

My recollection is imperfect because I did not return.

 

[devnulljp]

Curious - what about your jam makes you call it oldtime? Do you play all tunes in a certain key? Repeat each song many times? Prohibit resonator banjos?

For whatever reason, a lot of folk call our jam BG, when BG tunes make up well under a quarter of the tunes we play.

That's what the BLs call it and are quite adamant about it. Less widdlywiddly than bluegrass as far as I can tell. As the bass player, it is strictly verbotten to play anything but 1 & 5 on 1&3.

 

[Ed S]

That's what the BLs call it and are quite adamant about it. Less widdlywiddly than bluegrass as far as I can tell. As the bass player, it is strictly verbotten to play anything but 1 & 5 on 1&3.

What do you mean by "widdlywiddly"?

Do they play a bunch of tunes in one key before moving on to a bunch of tunes in another key? How many reps of each tune do they play? How heavily are fiddles and open-backed banjos represented?

I never knew the difference between BG and oldtime before I attended a banjo camp that had both tracks. When compared side-to-side, there are big differences. But IME, outside of that camp I've rarely encountered a jam that held closely to one or the other. (As for what constitutes "stringband" music - I'd consider that even more amorphous.)

I'm far from the most adventuresome bassist out there, but I'd have a hard time playing NOTHING other than the 1/5 on the 1&3.

Our band calls ourselves a stringband, and if pressed, we'd probably be most likely to call our music oldtime. But it really isn't. We play all manner of songs, and they all just end up sounding like us - whatever the heck that would be!

 

[salcott]

Yeah, I remember one time I went to what IIRC was billed as a folk jam, and I led something like Rolling in My Sweet Baby's Arms and said something like, "Take it, fiddle!" And the guitarist said something along the lines of, "We don't DO that sort of thing here!"

My recollection is imperfect because I did not return.

You dared to suggest improvisation.

 

[Jason Sypher]

You dared to suggest improvisation.

Definitely in the tradition to take a break on that tune. Folk jams can be funny. People wear their insecurities on their sleeves! Traditional music harbors the insecurities unfortunately. But good music isn’t easy. You’re going to have to face your insecurities if you want to be good at something. Don’t go to a folk jam with your Puff the Magic Dragon and not think you’re going to feel some heat for it. People who need to control a session by keeping the level down drive crazy. That’s how people stay amateur forever.

 

[neddyrow]

Old time fiddle music is led by the fiddle player and the banjo plays claw hammer style. Most of band is for rhythmic support.

We play lots of old time fiddle tunes. Our band members are pretty talented and will take breaks in certain fiddle tunes. We also do back and forth solos with members where the fiddle player will play the first 4-8 bars and the guitar, mando or banjo player will play the next 4-8 bars and around they go. The fiddle player will do the A and B parts one more time to bring it back together and done.

Bluegrass has most players taking solos in between verses. The banjo player plays Scruggs style banjo. There is not always an A/B parts setup. It is much more like a “normal” song with verse, chorus and breaks for solos.

for me, in old time, the fiddle player is the leader. In bluegrass, it can be anybody.

 

[GretschWretch]

Oh my - the dreaded hammered dulcimer!

Which still is not as dreadful as the hammered dulcimer player. Whiskey before breakfast and all through the day.

 

[Jason Sypher]

As the bass player, it is strictly verbotten to play anything but 1 & 5 on 1&3.

I know what you mean but it’s not true. But if you play anything else it better fit and not interrupt the flow

 

[turf3]

I know what you mean but it’s not true. But if you play anything else it better fit and not interrupt the flow

To me it seems far more important to play true two-beat throughout, and lay off them damn quarter notes. Note choice less critical.

The thing is, folks can get easily bored playing two-beat with almost always the root on 1, and then they start fooling around with the rhythm and the harmony and pretty soon the groove is lost. I went down that path till a wise old gujitarist told me to stop. However, if you'll toss out the preconceived rock and roll notions of bass playing, there's a world of fine subtle details in playing straight two-beat bass; note lengths, note choices, negotiating crooked tunes cleanly, dynamics, attack, etc., etc., etc.

And all this applies just as well to bluegrass (which to me is very close to old time no matter what the adherents of each say; and it's all just forms of country music to me, honestly...)

Over and over I see it, people come to the BG (or OT) jam and they decide they want to join so they pick up the bass "it's easy". And as soon as they can figure out which end stands up and which end rests on the floor, they're doing quarter and eighth note walk-ups (HEY BAND!!! CHORD CHANGE NOW!!!) and god knows what all else, instead of just playing big notes on one and three at EXACTLY the right time with EXACTLY the right duration, loudness, attack. And the groove disappears. Then someone like me, with extremely limited technique, gets up there and just plays the damn roots and fifths ON ONE AND THREE and all of a sudden you can feel the stress go out of the room, because there's a groove going.