Pacman's sure-fire scale practice method

#441
I have been using this method to study chord tones in addition to modal and fingerboard awareness. What a revelation, thanks Jon. I am, however experiencing one major gap in my understanding. Could anyone provide help in understanding the mental process that is needed to making the transitions between chords using scale degrees, only. Say you are playing a ii7-V7-IM7. How do you conceptualize a smooth transition using this method, or is thinking in scale degrees even suited to this application? Do you first think 1-3-5 as you play, then revert to the next chord components by their name (A, B#, whatever) then find the note by name on the fingerboard, then revert again to scale degrees as it applies to the new chord. I truly hope that this can be done using 1 group of scale degrees, like that of the key signature. Thanks in advance.
 
#442
A tempo said:
I have been using this method to study chord tones in addition to modal and fingerboard awareness. What a revelation, thanks Jon. I am, however experiencing one major gap in my understanding. Could anyone provide help in understanding the mental process that is needed to making the transitions between chords using scale degrees, only. Say you are playing a ii7-V7-IM7. How do you conceptualize a smooth transition using this method, or is thinking in scale degrees even suited to this application? Do you first think 1-3-5 as you play, then revert to the next chord components by their name (A, B#, whatever) then find the note by name on the fingerboard, then revert again to scale degrees as it applies to the new chord. I truly hope that this can be done using 1 group of scale degrees, like that of the key signature. Thanks in advance.
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Well, my opinion on it is that sure, you should learn each note of every chord in the song AND how they each relate to the scale degrees of the main key.

For example:
If you're in Bb Major, a ii7 V7 IM7 comes up. the 1,3,5 of the ii7 is the 2,4 and 6th degree of Bb major, the 1,3,5 of the V7 is the 5,7 and 2nd degree of Bb Major.

BUT, although I do recommend understanding music theory to the fullest of your ability, in practical application I don't think most "smooth" bassists actively think about scale degrees when walking through changes (I know I don't)...IMO it's more a combination of 3 things:

1) remembering scale/arpeggio patterns and also realizing there's several ways to jump a half or whole step on the bass (the bass is probably one of the most pattern driven instruments around)
2)knowing where the root of the next chord is in relation to your current position
3) hearing in your mind where you need to go and finding it using what i said in #1 and #2.

I can't stress those 3 points enough...again, know what notes exist in each key or chord but in actual practical app, if you know the shape/pattern of each chord fully (in that you can hear the chord in your mind and your hands can translate this to your instrument correctly...it's just a matter of hearing where the notes link to each other, which comes more easily with constant practice. I think the best way to practice this is walking a 2-5-1 progression through the circle of fifths. (let me know if you need an explanation of this)

I find that a lot of my students either can't hear intervals above a whole step that well (i.e. in Bb major, they can hear Bb to C (1 whole step) and maybe Bb to D (major 3rd) ), or they don't know how to effectively translate it to the bass. These same students refuse to sing it when I tell them to, and when they finally give in, most times they're off-pitch or sing something entirely different.

I guess to make this long story short: If you can't hear it OR if you can't hum or sing it...it's gonna be an uphill battle trying to play it, especially at faster tempos. The most versatile bassists aren't necessarily the ones with the faster fingers/thumbs, but the ones with the fastest ear.

Purely IMO and IME obviously :) Sorry if your question was directed only towards a single person
 
#443
johndough247 said:
....I think the best way to practice this is walking a 2-5-1 progression through the circle of fifths. (let me know if you need an explanation of this)
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My question was to whoever wanted to tackle it, and I'm glad that it was you. Thank you johndough for such a thorough response. Yes, I would appreciate an explanation of walking anything through the Circle of Fifths. Please send a PM as this is off-topic to the original post. Thanks.

I understand the Circle of Fifths/Fourths. I already do an arpeggio study with the iim7-V7-IMaj7 progression. It's the "walking through the COFs" part that has me.

My interest in using scale degrees instead of note names is to make everything instantly transposable. Thanks again.
 
#447
This exercise is good.. but i think it would even more worthwhile to do with Chords/Chord Tones!!....

I thought scales where cool till i tried playing giant steps or moments notice lol.. Chord tones are king

thanks!
 
#449
Pacman said:
Not to burst your bubble, but muscle memory is a bad trap! Be conscious of the notes you play - make them a choice. Hear every note you play, before you play it, and your playing will improve exponentially. There aren't any shortcuts, folks, just hard work.
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When I read this entry I instantly thought JACO!

"There aren't any shortcuts, folks, just hard work"

Knowing the scales and arpeggios is one thing but hearing how to apply them in context will allow you to make wonderful music, which is the goal. Or something like that.

I think I am getting it and only after 20 years of messing with this thing.:hyper:
 
#450
EchoEcho said:
Oh, that kind of pattern :D. Hehe i was looking out for some sort of pattern between the different boxes. For example, this could be one 'pattern':
E string: tone tone
A String: tone tone
D string: semitone tone
G string: tone tone

Another could be:
E string: tone tone
A String: tone tone
D string: semitone tone
G string: semitone tone





Doesn't C# Lydian go: tone semitone(ie whole step followed by a half step) on the E string? In other words:
E String: F(3rd) G(4th) G#(5th)

Is there something i've misunderstood?
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Was in same boat not seeing just 3 boxes like you would see with say the 5 pentatonic forms or the 7 basic major mode forms.

Wrote this practice out on a fretboard diagram because I thought I must be missing something here. Nope there where more than 3 patterns(boxes) created moving up the neck this way. Scratching head; I then realise Pacman must be speaking about the semitone/whole tone patterns being created on each string using this method of 3 notes per string.
Seen those patterns early on in my playing when practicing each major mode in any given key starting from the root of each mode as low on the neck as possible with 3 notes per string. Think I got this from Billy Sheehan back in 1991 @ MIT with his pattern thing.
Pacman takes this to the next level and has shared a tool that really accomplishes many things! Love it
 
#452
Greetings !
I'm impressed how long this thread has been around, a testament that it's really good stuff. Ok, I'm coming from playing trumpet about 30 years ago. Had a pretty good handle on music back then and some of it has come back.

I'm trying to learn everything at once which is daunting and on some days frustrating as hell. A new instrument, a new clef, notes and role & etc. I am, however, loving the low-end of life.

I'm working on the "Pacman Method" and thought I might share a little scrawling that I did this morning. The exercise was to put notes to staff paper (thanks StudyBass.com) of the exercises. I'm attaching the Cmaj and Fmaj "boxes" for a 4-string bass. I'll continue the exercise following the cycle of 4ths (C F Bb Eb Ab Db Gb B E A D G). I'm big fan of notes, tabs seem ok and they are more available than notes. The gang I play with mostly plays from lead/singer sheets so I'll have plenty of room to be creative.

I welcome feedback on the exercise and effort.
 

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#454
Thanks! I find it humorous that I can rip off just about any scale named on horn, but have to think about each and every note on bass... not to mention hunting and pecking the fretboard for those notes. In the end, I think writing it out will get bass clef note names in my thick head faster and more permanently. I like that most people on this thread warn against learning patterns. I can play the major scale pattern anywhere on the fretboard but I would be hard pressed to tell which scale I was playing. Heh!

Keep it on the down low. ;-)
 
#455
Hi all,

I started with going through CMaj, GMaj, and DMaj scales with this approach last night and like it so far. Here's how I'm thinking of it:

NOTE: Any note played is preceded by singing the note's number in the scale.

1) Pick a scale
2) Play the lowest note possible on the instrument in that scale with your first finger or open string
3) Play the next two notes of that scale on that same string (fingering will vary - do what puts the least amount of tension on your wrist)
4) Move up to the next lowest string and play the next three notes in the scale (keep your first finger in the same fret position as you had in the previous string)
5) Repeat #4 until you run out of strings
6) Walk back down the same notes with the same fingers
7) Move up to the next lowest note possible and repeat the exercise using that as your new starting position

One thing I've noticed is that it's very hard for me to loosen up on finger positions. I did classical piano for a while where correct finger positioning is extremely important for fast/technical pieces.

I also think this would be hard for beginners not to have precise finger position indicated, as they have enough to worry about;)

Not starting or stopping on a root is a bit odd, especially when you top out at 7. But I really like how that forces you to either hear what you're doing as a mode or focus on the roots in the scale - it really depends on your expectations.

Great stuff! Thanks!
 
#456
I started actually learning scales this year after 10 years of mostly tabs and by ear learning. I came to the same box conclusion out of the "Need for Speed" when playing metal.

I was looking for the most efficient way to go up and down a scale when writing so when I'm playing in G harmonic minor for a song we are writing I can just bust that scale out down the neck and play it until I find an area that sounds right for the song.
 
#457
Pacman said:
I’d like to share with you the method I believe is the best way to not only practice scales, but to learn the fingerboard of your bass, and really start getting your ears together. This is the method taught to me by my teacher and I want to share it with all of you. This method applies to all electric basses, regardless of the number of strings. For the examples, however, we’ll use the 4-string configuration. Additionally, all examples will be in the key of C major, but it is very important to practice these exercises in all keys once you’ve gotten the concept down.

One of the problems I think many people run into with scales is that they practice them from root to root. That is, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 and then maybe 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1. While this is a perfectly acceptable way to learn and practice scales, it’s not a) practical or b) musical. I say practice your scales from the lowest note on your bass to the highest. Let’s begin with C major. I’ll spell out a C major scale and show the note “function” or number beneath:

C 1
D 2
E 3
F 4
G 5
A 6
B 7
C 8(1)

So in C, the lowest available note in the 4-string is the open E string, which we can see is the 3rd of the scale. Start with the E and play E (the 3rd) F (the 4th) and G (the 5th) on the E string. Continuing the C major scale on the next string, play A (the 6th) B (the 7th) and C (the root). Still going up, play the open D (the 2nd) E (the 3rd) and F (the 4th). On the G-string play G (the 5th) A (the 6th) and B (the 7th). Come back down the scale the same way. I find that it helps if you say or sing the note function (number) as you play it. This gets the sound of each note in your head. It’s far more important to understand what the 3rd of a major scale sounds like, for instance, than to recognize an E when you hear it.

The second “box” will start with the lowest F on the 4 string. Continuing in C major, you’d play F, G, and A on the E string, B, C, and D on the A string, E, F, and G on the D string and A, B and C on the G-string. Remember to sing or say the scale numbers to really get the sound of the harmony in your head.

The third “box” starts on the low G. G, A, and B on the E string. C, D and E on the A string. F, G and A on the D. B, C and D on the G-string. Continue moving these “boxes” up the neck in this manner. I generally practice this up one octave from where I started and then come back down again. If you do this, you’ll notice patterns emerge (hint: there are only 3. Ever. No matter what.)

You can (and should) practice any and all scales and modes in this fashion. My suggestion is that once you’ve gotten this concept down you practice all your “C” scales and modes on one day, the next day all of your “C#” scales. Then your “D” scales, etc, etc. If you practice in this manner, your knowledge of keys will grow equally and even the tough keys won’t bother you.

Thanks for reading.
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I would agree with this and add that what your are developing here is your ear. To become a better bassist it's more rewarding to conectrate your efforts on learning the sounds of the intervals, what does a 3rd sound like in reference to the root, ot the 5 or the 7th. Through my experience I have changed my study from a scalar or modal approach to a chordal approach. Learn what notes make up a minor chord or major chord. Memorize what the chord type is according to the degree of the scale note you're playing. For example in a major key,using the key of C as an example the first note is obviously C. The chord that goes along with the 1st scale degree for a major scale is major. So that would be a C major chord. The second dgeree or the note D would be a ii chord. The second chord in a major scale is minor, the 3rd is monor etc, etc. By studying the type of chord, and practicing Arpeggios, your ear will get bigger and so will your fretboard knowledge.
 
#458
What does it mean to "sing the note?" This is also on guitar and it blows my head off, is to sing, for example, a C note? cuz if I don't even know how it sounds and I can't sing anything, hell I'm gonna be able to sing a C. Or is it just to say "C", "D", "G", etc,?

And, anyway to know the actual sound of a note? I've seen tutorials and stuff to identify a note on the fretboard (on guitar), but just the position, not the actual note, (i.e. I might know I have to play the 7th fret on the g string, but I don't know which note it is, and if I don't look at a map, it's impossible for me to play the same note on another position)
 
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