Pay Pal F& F no longer allowed

[rojo412]

@Mighty Thumb You're preaching to the choir with me. It's unfortunate how convoluted this has become and we can certainly thank the a-holes that started doing scam listings with zombie accounts for the hullabaloo.
I'm only asking questions because the last time it was like this, there were too many landmines to step in on deals to where you'd just be booted off and not even given a chance to explain, even as a legit and trustworthy member of these forums.
That's the only reason I'm asking. Trying to avoid the landmines this time through.

As for the scammers paying the fee to join... they are paying that fee with someone else's money. It's a way to gain trust here in an equally illegal way as the fake listings they are popping up to steal more.

This is why TB is changing the rule, so they can (attempt to) avoid more of these a-holes coming in here with their license to steal, using other people's money.
If that well dries up on TB for them, then hopefully it stops.

And you know what they say: hope in one hand, {poo} in the other... and see which one fills up first.

 

[Mighty Thumb]

@Mighty Thumb You're preaching to the choir with me. It's unfortunate how convoluted this has become and we can certainly thank the a-holes that started doing scam listings with zombie accounts for the hullabaloo.
I'm only asking questions because the last time it was like this, there were too many landmines to step in on deals to where you'd just be booted off and not even given a chance to explain, even as a legit and trustworthy member of these forums.
That's the only reason I'm asking. Trying to avoid the landmines this time through.

As for the scammers paying the fee to join... they are paying that fee with someone else's money. It's a way to gain trust here in an equally illegal way as the fake listings they are popping up to steal more.

This is why TB is changing the rule, so they can (attempt to) avoid more of these a-holes coming in here with their license to steal, using other people's money.
If that well dries up on TB for them, then hopefully it stops.

And you know what they say: hope in one hand, {poo} in the other... and see which one fills up first.

I agree on all points and share your concerns regarding the pitfalls this can create for well intentioned members in good standing. I’ve said my peace and will just wait and see how this plays out.

 

[ped]

@Mighty ThumbAs for the scammers paying the fee to join... they are paying that fee with someone else's money.

How?

 

[rojo412]

If someone is able to hack an account and make fake listings, they certainly have the means to be using the money they have stolen already to pay a TB membership fee. Whether they are using card skimmers, other fake sales gains, or just straight up stole cash to begin with, these people don't have a problem coming up with those funds to register as a supporting member.

Remember... we are talking about scumbags here. Not fine, upstanding individuals.

 

[lamarjones]

I brought this up in another thread before it was locked.

I think PayPal fee plus tax amount, however that hits, should be considered far with good and services. That is the real price difference.

Also noted that in the absence of an original receipt, I was told a best guess should suffice for the bass although that would probably open up to an audit possibly if used a lot, but tax guy did say it wouldn't make sense to assume a guitar cost nothing for tax reasons.

So, a non goods and services discount from me would include the pp fee and also my guess on tax. I did state in the other thread that I was one asking for FnF, but with any trusted TBer, I have been shipping first. Trust goes two ways I suppose.

No issues with the policy being changed. I get it.

 

[ped]

If someone is able to hack an account and make fake listings, they certainly have the means to be using the money they have stolen already to pay a TB membership fee. Whether they are using card skimmers, other fake sales gains, or just straight up stole cash to begin with, these people don't have a problem coming up with those funds to register as a supporting member.

Remember... we are talking about scumbag here. Not fine, upstanding individuals.

Do you have evidence that this has happened? Seems like a lot of effort compared to making a fake listing somewhere that requires no fee.

Hacking into PayPal or someone’s bank account is one thing but I don’t think if a scammer was doing that they’d bother with paying a listing fee to hopefully sell something fraudulently - why would you bother! Again, I’m all ears if this has actually happened. Seems a bit like stealing a car so you can drive it to a dealership to buy a new one.

 

[Bass Ape]

How about we bring back 2fa so we can have f&f payments again?

imho, if ppl here are getting scammed, then move by the mods is the appropriate one to take in order to try and prevent it happening again.

security has a cost.

 

[rojo412]

Do you have evidence that this has happened? Seems like a lot of effort compared to making a fake listing somewhere that requires no fee.

Hacking into PayPal or someone’s bank account is one thing but I don’t think if a scammer was doing that they’d bother with paying a listing fee to hopefully sell something fraudulently - why would you bother! Again, I’m all ears if this has actually happened. Seems a bit like stealing a car so you can drive it to a dealership to buy a new one.

I don't have direct evidence on TB of this, as I'm not privy to that information. Maybe the powers that be around here can provide info that I don't have.

But from what I see, it's what makes the most sense.
Once one of these thieves have money they can spend that isn't theirs, the can choose to spend it however they wish. And if spending $35 on a supporting membership can get them $2500 by selling a fake Ken Smith listing, it just seems like their best method for doing so.
I don't think they care about the sunk cost of $35 once they have $2500, especially if that wasn't their money to begin with. Whether their seed money came from a facebook, craigslist, ebay, or reverb scam... or even just the purse of someone who they flat out stole it from, I don't think that the next move of trying to fleece more money out of people makes a difference to that aspect.

Also, if they can hack into 1 account, they could probably hack into 10 accounts. So if the one gets caught and shut down, they could still be here with another nine of them in waiting.

If TB doesn't allow their previous method of money transfer though, now they are powerless to pull that trick here again. That seems to be the thinking of changing the system to NOT allow these unprotected payments to be an option. That is the effort being made to safeguard the classifieds. And it may very well work to some degree. Time will tell...
(unless buyers continue to fall for scams and pay using unprotected payments, of course.)

As for the car thing, while not related to TB, there are a large number of stories where carjackers and other thieves have used stolen cars to drive to a better car to steal. Or they smash into a store and steal cash or ATMs using them. That happens frequently. Stories like that are on the news weekly around here.
This is essentially a similar principle, from what I can see.

 

[ped]

I dunno mate I just don’t think anyone would get as far as hacking someone’s PayPal then use it to list an item for sale. Let’s not conflate the issue with conjecture. I think we’re probably dealing with one or two less than honest members rather than in international crime hacking syndicate who just have an interest in listing basses for sale.

 

[Mighty Thumb]

How about we bring back 2fa….

Amen. It is stunning to me that folks pitched such a big fit about 2FA that the site had to back off. It’s such an easy step to take for one’s own security. I would suggest giving people that have it enabled a badge like the supporting member badge.

imho, if ppl here are getting scammed, then move by the mods is the appropriate one to take in order to try and prevent it happening again.

This will not prevent it from happening again and that is not why the site is doing it.

security has a cost.

Agreed. This cost will be bourn by the seller.

I dunno mate I just don’t think anyone would get as far as hacking someone’s PayPal then use it to list an item for sale. Let’s not conflate the issue with conjecture. I think we’re probably dealing with one or two less than honest members rather than in international crime hacking syndicate who just have an interest in listing basses for sale.

That’s not what’s happened here. To quote @beaglesandbass
”To clarify, TB isn’t getting hacked. Accounts with very easy passwords (that use the same password for their email) with no 2FA are being compromised. Once the accounts are taken over, scammers are buying a 1 month supporting membership for a few bucks and posting a fake ad trying to net a few hundred to a few thousand.”

This is not “one or two less than honest members” doing bad guy stuff. It is far more likely bad guys buying data breach info in large quantities off the dark web and eventually winding up here where they unfortunately find a mark.

 

[Geddyfleaharris]

That is correct, beyond a certain predetermined threshold, which was $20k or 200 sales you woudl get a reportable tax document that you had to include as income. That reasonable threshold separated pro sellers from rank and file hobbyists. And, seemed somewhat 'reasonable' as taxes go. It was set to drop to a ridiculous $600 in 2023 I believe but some serious push back from the said rank and file has held that off, for now and the limit is currently $5k. But again, the caveat is on 'profit'. As I understand it if I can prove I bought a bass for $1000 and sold for $1100 only the $100 'profit' should be taxable. As I understand it and I am NOT a professional. The document trail will be the issue. And this is tracked through transaction facilitators like PP, Venmo, Reverb, etc. Not sure how that works if you have transaction values under the threshold at each but yoru annual total is over.

And, if we think all this is reasonable and fair, wait until a CBDC is implemented.

Governments are wacked. They just want all our money. You already paid tax on the money you used for the original purchase. But God help you if you make $50.

 

[ped]

Amen. It is stunning to me that folks pitched such a big fit about 2FA that the site had to back off. It’s such an easy step to take for one’s own security. I would suggest giving people that have it enabled a badge like the supporting member badge.

This will not prevent it from happening again and that is not why the site is doing it.

Agreed. This cost will be bourn by the seller.

That’s not what’s happened here. To quote @beaglesandbass
”To clarify, TB isn’t getting hacked. Accounts with very easy passwords (that use the same password for their email) with no 2FA are being compromised. Once the accounts are taken over, scammers are buying a 1 month supporting membership for a few bucks and posting a fake ad trying to net a few hundred to a few thousand.”

This is not “one or two less than honest members” doing bad guy stuff. It is far more likely bad guys buying data breach info in large quantities off the dark web and eventually winding up here where they unfortunately find a mark.

Ah I see, that makes more sense. We have only a yearly payment option, so perhaps removing the monthly version would stop this behaviour as well as making everyone upgrade their passwords.

 

[JenderBazzFass]

To me it's crazy that any buyer would do F&F in the first place. It's like mailing someone an envelope full of cash. You have no recourse if this goes bad, yet people do it to save ~$50 on a $2k item? (It's a massive red flag for a seller to demand F&F in any case!)

 

[ped]

I think some people have been scammed the other way around - a scamming buyer can use PayPal to claim back the payment saying the item wasn't as described, they were sent a box of rocks etc. I can understand wanting to sell something and effectively have cash and no clawback facility to protect me as a seller.

I/we usually advise people to have a zoom/phone call with any potential buyer or seller. There's a lot to be said for it, and it'll scare any scammer off.

 

[Mighty Thumb]

Ah I see, that makes more sense. We have only a yearly payment option, so perhaps removing the monthly version would stop this behaviour as well as making everyone upgrade their passwords.

Both great ideas. Unfortunately there would likely be a huge pushback on them.

To me it's crazy that any buyer would do F&F in the first place. It's like mailing someone an envelope full of cash. You have no recourse if this goes bad, yet people do it to save ~$50 on a $2k item? (It's a massive red flag for a seller to demand F&F in any case!)

Mailing someone an envelope of cash is an option and not a forbidden one to offer in your listing. This rule isn’t about protecting the buyer from getting scammed. Here is @twinjet post:

You're misinterpreting our involvement here. It's our job to make sure no one treats you differently as a buyer solely because you want to use protection.

If the seller kills the deal because they require friends & family and you want Goods & Services, that violates the terms and conditions they agreed to and we step in. At the end of the day, you can buy that $2,000 bass from across the country without buyer protection and we will never know. Is it smart? Not at all. Will you get in trouble? No, and if you consider that a victory, then more power to you.

I probably don't need to say this, but I am going to be absolutely clear – if you get scammed, we ban the guy and move on with our day. The financial repercussions are wholly on you and we do not assist further with recovering lost funds.

I think some people have been scammed the other way around - a scamming buyer can use PayPal to claim back the payment saying the item wasn't as described, they were sent a box of rocks etc. I can understand wanting to sell something and effectively have cash and no clawback facility to protect me as a seller.

I/we usually advise people to have a zoom/phone call with any potential buyer or seller. There's a lot to be said for it, and it'll scare any scammer off.

There you go again with another good, sensible idea. I have done exactly this a number of times irrespective of which side of the equation I’m on. The result? Neither the buyer nor the seller got scammed. I’ve also made some friends this way.

 

[cyclopsbookworm]

I have been selling here for over a decade, but I'm going to just move my ads to reverb only now. FB, Offer Up, and Craigslist are all in person only, and all things being equal, if I have to jump through the same hoops here, then I'll go where I have at least some protections as a seller and where the buyer can pay installments or CC. Sad TB got hit so hard with obvious scams, and something had to be done, but it doesn't make a lot of sense to sell here anymore. The forums are still great, and who knows, I may get sick of reverb again, but that's where it is at the moment.

 

[JKos]

if I have to jump through the same hoops here

How does this create any hoops for you to go through? Honestly curious.

 

[FRoss6788]

How does this create any hoops for you to go through? Honestly curious.

It doesn't.

Some folks just like to complain. Weird.

 

[mwebb113]

How does this create any hoops for you to go through? Honestly curious.

Hoops is probably not the right word, but it does bring the cost closer to Reverb. It costs $35 a year to sell here while Reverb is free. This means that if you sold $1000 of gear a year on Reverb vs TB, Reverb would only cost you $15 more in fees - while netting you a bigger user base, flexible payments for buyers, and protections for sellers.

Obviously, when you sell way more than that the argument does start to go away.

 

[FRoss6788]

Some of us see a value in Talkbass as more than just a place to sell gear, and when we do, feel better about dealing with the folks in this community.