Most of these sit unused on shelves because there are better performing low cost units available. Some wind up in landfills. They seem very happy to be repurposed.
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Preamp tubes
- Thread starter No Treble
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Most of these sit unused on shelves because there are better performing low cost units available. Some wind up in landfills. They seem very happy to be repurposed.
Perhaps you are buying the wrong lottery tickets?
I checked my latest batch and naturally no winners. I handed them to the clerk and told her I wished to return them as they didn’t win. Her face was a picture until she realised that I was joking!
LOL!!! Excellent!!!!!
Nobody is really expecting divine favor by merely swapping a tube, despite the jokes alluding to this. However, even ignoring the artsy description of tonal qualities, it's hardly pseudo-science. It's actual science. There's documentation about the inherent frequency response, gain factors, geese man. Lots of differences. It's hardly changing a length of wire. Why is this so controversial?
On this graph, I don't see much difference between the various tubes as far as frequency response, only differences in gain between them, which is to be expected.
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That graph shows fairly small gain variations from tube to tube with one outlier, and virtually no frequency response differences at all. So, maybe not the best way to make your point.
+1
For me, there really is a tone difference with *SOME* tube swap-outs in *SOME* preamps. Key word is "some." I think there are many scenarios where tube rolling doesn't seem to make much difference in tone. That could be due to the particular tubes that are being swapped out, or the preamp circuit design, or a combination of both. I think because there are so many times when it doesn't seem to make much difference, that has led to the sentiment that exists today regarding tube rolling.
My perspective is, try swapping out tubes to see if it makes a noticeable difference. If it does, cool! If it doesn't, then you now have information you didn't have before, which is helpful.
all different. All "similar", but not identical. I'm deleting my membership. This place is brimming with closed-minded negativity and a good few of you should probably be ashamed of yourselves.
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Your choice, but an unfortunate and unnecessary one IMHO. If we normalized those traces for gain there's virtually no chance I'd hear the very small frequency response differences, IME and IMO. Your ears may easily be better than mine, but I do have over 50 years of experience working with tube amps (using, repairing,modifying, building, and designing), and a very keen interest in this stuff. I could and would have posted some better examples for you, but I guess that option is gone now. Best of luck, and have fun wherever you land next.
I don't believe I'm closed-minded. There's no point in getting agitated over a discussion about the merits of various electronic components; you might want to reconsider your decision, as this is a great forum and resource.
I do see a little bit of deviations in the upper frequencies on your graph, probably due to slight capacitance differences between the electrodes, but nothing that I think would be audible.
Charlie and my neighbour from Alberta spoke eloquently so I’ll just add a big <sigh>.
agedhorse
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I think you showed an attitude (certainly your comments expressed an unappreciative attitude if nothing else) when you jumped on me for my comments that were intended for all forum members without considering that there are a lot of other players here who might learn something from the discussion. Contribution is simply more than a yes or no answer, and based on the PMs I received, a lot of players showed such interest beyond such an answer.
I'm sorry you were so offended, it would be helpful to future discussions IMO if you were more open to the community nature of this forum, and showed a little thicker skin.
As I said in a previous post, if you have the interest and can afford it, then I’ll go along and say sure, go for it
Too true. My dad was an electrician in the Navy during WWII, and an avid radio amateur most of his life, so tubes were his thing. He told me not to put too much faith in any tube tester you didn’t calibrate yourself. But at least those tube kiosks often got things fixed without needing to have the now nigh on mythical (and expensive!) TV Repairman come out to your house to swap out a fussy tube.
Different times those days were.
agedhorse
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If you were to normalize these tubes for gain variation, the difference would be pretty close to the measurement error factor. IMO, the differences are negligible at best.
When characterizing tubes, one of the things that are important to consider is the circuit that they are used in (which can make a huge difference), and the DIFFERENCE in linearity with respect to frequency. Some circuits make this quite a significant variable and some minimize this effect. Other differences that are not often talked about are gain versus level (voltage or current) versus frequency linearities, distortion versus level (voltage or current) versus frequency linearities, etc. Both of these are much more likely to explain at least some of the subjective differences between tubes. Of course it this is not easy for marketing driven businesses to explain (and perhaps understand themselves), but there's a lot more validity and truth to this than there is the stories that are made up to shove glass down customer's throats.
If you are going to sell a product, IMO it's helpful to understand how the product works. If you are going to sell based on obscure details and principles, IMO the seller better understand the hows and whys of these and stay honest to reality. I'm sure some do, but from what I have seen there is no shortage of sellers who have no idea how a tube actually works in a variety of circuits commonly encountered in the audio world.
agedhorse
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All I'm doing is quoting the manual.
I guess You are right. It depends on whether you have read the manual. After all there is a bunch of garage amp builders who say stand-by switches aren't necessary. @agedhorse, I believe that if you include stand-by switches in your designs, then I am sure you provide minimum warm up times. Therefore, you do not belong on my unwritten list of garage amp builders.
So what you're indeed saying is that if we go ahead and remove one of the ways in which these tubes are inherently different, they become more the same, right? Isn't that how your statement reads? That if we make them the same artificially, that they become the same. Why bother saying that? What you're really saying is purely theoretical, and I can't help but notice that. It is also 100% fact, yes. If we build them all identically, and use them all in the same amp, and adjust the parameters identically, and use the same guitar and cab, play the same song, at the same time, then naturally they will all sound the same, presumably. Not only that, but someone would think something weird is going on.
Do you play guitar? If so, don't you notice the differences in sound from each tube? From each amp? Cab? Do you sample them? I'm speaking very objectively, here. I mean to exactly pinpoint that there is a difference between someone who can engineer, design, and build an amp, and someone really listening to tone quality and nuance. I'm NOT saying you lack one or the other. Not at all. I am indeed saying that there is a difference in the processes in both programs, and that a person built for one part (design, engineer) may not even care about the other (how it sounds).
Aren't you supposed to be telling me that V1 is the most critical, because that's the one with the biggest effect to the signal downstream?
You have a fairly impressive length of time with equipment, and I'm sure you put all that stuff in your signature to get someone to stroke your ego over it, and you're also trying to tell me that changing tubes will have very small, probably inaudible differences? Are you really trying to tell me that even with this graph showing subtle differences, that all tubes are almost identical? Granted, they follow an admittedly VERY SIMILAR curve, but NOT IDENTICAL. There's ONE difference. How do they sound? JUST LIKE WITH ANYTHING EVER MADE EVER, EVER, they aren't identical. Some may have been built by folks hung over on Monday morning, whilst others fail the QC standards.
Why so many different brands? Even if only a few manufacturers? Why do some amp manufacturers use exclusively one brand? Don't tell me it's all because of sponsorship and financial arrangements. There had to be a reason to begin negotiations in the first place. If a tube manufacturer made a million tubes for brand X amp builder, and they all sounded horrible (thereby proving that there are differences), brand X probably wouldn't care if they were offered at discount. Brand X would likely choose consistent and similar tubes that made their amps sound great, right? From one manufacturer. Because who knows how the others sound, bringing it right back around that each one can be subtly different. They're like tract homes, and every one has subtle differences, right? Color, floor plan, I mean really.
That is all.
Testing to compare tubes is good but there are always limitations in the procedures. It is good for sorting through tube populations.
The problem with static testing is that it doesn’t provide the entire picture of how a tube will work in an amp. Some sort of dynamic testing procedures are also necessary. Those procedures include lab testing. They also include listening tests. A lot of listening tests. They help determine when the iteration of the design process ends.
Tubes respond in different ways depending on how they are driven. How they respond to dramatic transients changes at the input. But it isn’t just about the tubes. Complicating things is how an amp’s power supply responds and recovers to demand put on it by the tubes as a function of time is one factor that makes or breaks an amp. Especially in the milliseconds after an event.
This is complex stuff. A graph comparing tubes doesn’t convey what is really going on.
The problem with static testing is that it doesn’t provide the entire picture of how a tube will work in an amp. Some sort of dynamic testing procedures are also necessary. Those procedures include lab testing. They also include listening tests. A lot of listening tests. They help determine when the iteration of the design process ends.
Tubes respond in different ways depending on how they are driven. How they respond to dramatic transients changes at the input. But it isn’t just about the tubes. Complicating things is how an amp’s power supply responds and recovers to demand put on it by the tubes as a function of time is one factor that makes or breaks an amp. Especially in the milliseconds after an event.
This is complex stuff. A graph comparing tubes doesn’t convey what is really going on.
Chef
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Also srsly;
If you can’t take or leave others opinions on a subject; and handle the fact that some contributions may apply other than directly to your original question; an open forum like this may be very frustrating to you.
Yet, this is an open forum, and civil participation is in fact required.
If you can’t take or leave others opinions on a subject; and handle the fact that some contributions may apply other than directly to your original question; an open forum like this may be very frustrating to you.
Yet, this is an open forum, and civil participation is in fact required.