Quincy Jones says Paul McCartney was the worst bassist he ever heard

[-Asdfgh-]

McCartney along with Jamerson wrote the foundational book that the rest of us use. McCartney was pretty much the first melodic electric bassist, no one was doing what he did on electric before he did it. Jamerson brought the upright feel into it, McCartney brought the melody into it.

There were many bassists in the 1960s that contributed to developing electric bass usage, and some of McCartney's early lines are not melodic at all. I'd have to look more at chronology - was McCartney a first or just a populariser? I also don't buy McCartney as the inventor of fuzz bass as I know one of my uncles was doing it before him .

Commentator Bill Dean writes that the exact figures are impossible to determine, but "the anecdotal evidence suggests thousands – if not hundreds of thousands or even more – young musicians across the country" responded by forming bands.[108] This was sometimes to the chagrin of their parents and other adults.[109][107][108][172]

The same has been said of Lonnie Donnegan in the UK. He inspired people such as Jimmy Page. Same of Bill Haley. Or The Shadows. And the Beatles emerged about the same time as the Rolling Stones. It was the Stones that prompted my uncle to swap from cornet to bass. So I am unconvinced that, certainly in the UK, the Beatles was singular event rather than part of a movement. Even things like Beatlemania had already occurred in the UK with other acts, e.g., the crowds, screaming at gigs. The Beatles seemed to take it further, and certainly managed to have multiple records high in the charts at the same time which seems to have been pretty new, but I think sometimes the success of the Beatles is over amplified by people who are fans of the Beatles and know how to use a typewriter . I like the Beatles, but it's just a band, and not all the output was great.

I feel Shakespeare is in the same boat - only moderately popular when he was alive and for quite a while afterwards you get people claiming he invented all sorts of words or even consciousness.

 

[ShoeManiac]

FFS, this thread is still generating clicks for Vulture, huh? I think they certainly achieved their goal of generating clickbait.

Quincy Jones like to talk s**t. That much is clear. And in 1962, when it's likely that he first heard The Beatles their music was not that sophisticated. They could write pop songs with hooks, sure. But musicianship? It was functional - IN 1962. I just look back to the quote:

What were your first impressions of the Beatles?
That they were the worst musicians in the world. They were no-playing mother****ers. Paul was the worst bass player I ever heard. And Ringo? Don’t even talk about it

Q had vastly different musical references based on his education and his musical career up that point - IN 1962. I get the massive amount of respect for Paul McCartney here at TB. He is the reason that so many people became musicians. Hearing Paul's playing on Sgt. Pepper was the first time that I really heard the bass, and a few years later I got my first instrument. But for a moment, divorce yourself from your love of Paul and The Beatles and take a long hard look at the musicianship year by year. Because The Beatles of '62 are not The Beatles of '64. And by 1969 you would be shocked to learn that this was the same band you heard in 1962. Take a look at their first single, "Love me do", released in 1962. It's got a melodic hook, but what about the playing? It serves the song, but it's not anything that I would regard as remarkable in terms of any of the instruments. The most musically adventurous device in the song is in the chorus - the vocal melody ascends while the harmonica part descends. This tune could very well have been that first impression. He wasn't being asked about 'Abbey Road' or 'Sgt. Pepper'.

And frankly, I think that he might just be someone who uses language with a greater deal of precision than other people do. Another quote came up in the course of the thread that pointed me in this direction. To paraphrase:

What is your most important musical accomplishment?
That I can notate what I feel.

That quote tells me that in musical language Quincy Jones is very precise about the way he writes. And that's what music is when it really works - language. So being precise about his words might be something that is just in Q's nature. Context is important.

There was historically not a lot of respect given to rock musicians in the 1950's and 1960's by studio professionals and jazz musicians. Look at quotes from members of the Wrecking Crew. I can't begin to recall the number of times I read different session musicians of the time speaking about rock musicians, and they would utter the phrase "they can't play their instruments". But as rock and pop music grew more sophisticated later in the 1960's the paradigm shifted. Albums like 'Pet Sounds' and 'Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band' (caveat given to Pet Sounds for the session players) showed the world that this music was far more complex and layered. But that was 1966!

Ultimately I think that the writer and/or editor(s) of this piece saw that quote and started maniacally laughing at the s**tstorm they were about to stir up and the clicks it would generate. They got a piece of red meat thrown their way and look at what we have - this nonsense is still getting people riled up over 3 years later. And everyone who invested so much passion here took the bait.

 

[TomB]

We’ll leave Shakespeare for another forum, but I’m with Bob on how the Beatles hit the US very hard, particularly the young white musician segment. It was a brief phenomenon, but it was real, and unprecedented. I’m sure it was a convergence of many cultural developments, but it was national in scope.
My personal experience was this: I was already playing some baritone uke and tenor guitar, my friends not at all. As soon as the Beatles hit, at least 3 of them wanted to play guitar. Fine, I said, go ahead. I’ll take the one with 4 strings . I doubt any of them play today.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

We’ll leave Shakespeare for another forum, but I’m with Bob on how the Beatles hit the US very hard, particythe young white musician segment. It was a brief phenomenon, but it was real, and unprecedented. I’m sure it was a convergence of many cultural developments, but it cut across class and was national in scope.
My personal experience was this: I was already playing some baritone uke and tenor guitar, my friends not at all. As soon as the Beatles hit, at least 3 of them wanted to play guitar. Fine, I said, go ahead. I’ll take the one with 4 strings . I doubt any of them play today.

Maybe the Beatles were more important in the USA than UK!

 

[ShoeManiac]

Geniuses very often choose their words very carefully. And they interpret them just as carefully. Quincy Jones is a genius, but also a s**t talker. In his case he can back it up.

More context? The Beatles had hit records in the UK and Europe before they ever came to the U.S. Their first UK #1 was in 1963. They didn't come to the U.S. until 1964. Quincy Jones was playing Jazz in Europe in the early 60's. He started producing pop music for singers like Lesley Gore in 1963, which hit number 1 in the U.S and #8 in the U.K. No doubt some of Q's jazz snobbery came into play, because the musicians on records like that were studio professionals - very often people who played record dates in the daytime and jazz gigs at night. That was the culture. In addition to producing pop records at that time, Q was also the VP of a record label and scoring movie soundtracks. He very likely heard The Beatles before a lot of people did - he had produced records that were competing on the U.S. and U.K. charts. That's part of the context for that first impression.

 

[ShoeManiac]

...but I’m with Bob on how the Beatles hit the US very hard, particythe young white musician segment. It was a brief phenomenon, but it was real, and unprecedented. I’m sure it was a convergence of many cultural developments, but it cut across class and was national in scope.
My personal experience was this: I was already playing some baritone uke and tenor guitar, my friends not at all. As soon as the Beatles hit, at least 3 of them wanted to play guitar. Fine, I said, go ahead. I’ll take the one with 4 strings . I doubt any of them play today.

The striking thing here? This is YOUR frame of reference.

What about Quincy Jones's frame of reference? The inability of a lot of people to look at something from outside of themselves on a range of issues, if only to try to understand someone else's perspective is always illuminating.

 

[Watchootognbout]

Jazz vs Pop.
Thread is over four years old and still pissing people off.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Quincy Jones on the Secret Michael Jackson and the Problem With Modern Pop

What were your first impressions of the Beatles?
That they were the worst musicians in the world. They were no-playing mother****ers. Paul was the worst bass player I ever heard. And Ringo? Don’t even talk about it.

Beatles are, by far, the most over-rated band in history. But, I do like the Beatles, and always have. At the time, their music was revolutionary. I think they are also the first band to record in stereo (I heard that somewhere). In reality though, they're just a pop band strumming 3 chord progressions, with no soul in anything but the lyrics. Then...acid expansion. Haha. But, Beatles will never die.

What's funny is, nobody mentions that punk rock is the exact same thing, just faster. 3 chord strumming to a simple, repetitive drum beat. With the lyrics being the focal point. Nobody bashes punk bands (nowadays) like they bash the Beatles. And, the Beatles actually sound good.

So...whatever yo. Punk rock

 

[TomB]

The striking thing here? This is YOUR frame of reference.

What about Quincy Jones's frame of reference? The inability of a lot of people to look at something from outside of themselves on a range of issues, if only to try to understand someone else's perspective is always illuminating.

Of course it’s my frame of reference. I even say so. In no way was it a comment on QJ’s frame, or even on the OP’s question. Isn’t sharing our frames of reference why we converse here? I find the collective diversity to be what’s illuminating.

 

[bobyoung53]

Just to put things in perspective Quincy spouted a lot of opinions that day in the article and see below for intervention and then his apology:

More quotes from Quincy Jones in the same article:


But who knew what Woodstock would turn out to be? Jimi Hendrix was out there f###### up the national anthem.



[Marlon] Brando
The actor and Jones were longtime friends. During a down period in Jones’s life, he spent time on the island in Tahiti which Brando owned. The two called each other Leroy, owing to a story recounted extremely well (one among many) in this recent GQ profile. used to go cha-cha dancing with us. He could dance his a## off. He was the most charming mother###### you ever met. He’d #### anything. Anything! He’d #### a mailbox. James Baldwin. Richard Pryor. Marvin Gaye.


What was your greatest musical innovation?
Everything I’ve done.

I used to date Ivanka, you know.

Were there any rock musicians you thought were good?
I used to like Clapton’s band. What were they called?

Cream.
Yeah, they could play. But you know who sings and plays just like Hendrix?

Who?
Paul Allen, The Microsoft co-founder and multibillionaire has a collection of yachts and guitars to rival the world’s finest, both of which he apparently makes good use of..

Stop it. The Microsoft guy?
Yeah, man. I went on a trip on his yacht, and he had David Crosby, Joe Walsh, Sean Lennon — all those crazy mothershagers. Then on the last two days, Stevie Wonder came on with his band and made Paul come up and play with him — he’s good, man.



What’s something you wish you didn’t know?
Who killed Kennedy.

Who did it?
[Chicago mobster Sam] GiancanaChicago gangster Sam Giancana is a well-known name among Kennedy conspiracists, both for his alleged help in delivering Illinois votes for Kennedy in the 1960 presidential election and the 1963 assassination of the president. The latter theory largely stems from Giancana’s murder in 1975, not long before he was supposed to testify before a Senate committee investigating collusion between the mob and the CIA.. The connection was there between Sinatra and the Mafia and Kennedy. Joe Kennedy — he was a bad man — he came to Frank to have him talk to Giancana about getting votes.


You worked with Michael Jackson more than anyone he wasn’t related to. What’s something people don’t understand about him?
I hate to get into this publicly, but Michael stole a lot of stuff. He stole a lot of songs. [Donna Summer’s] “State of IndependenceOriginally written by Vangelis and longtime Yes front man Jon Anderson, “State of Independence” was recorded by Donna Summer in 1982. Jones produced Summer’s version, Michael Jackson helped out on backing vocals, and the song’s central riff does sound awfully similar (albeit faster) to the iconic bass riff on Jackson’s hit single “Billie Jean.” It should also be noted that, last year, Jones won a lawsuit over a royalties dispute against Jackson’s estate.” and “Billie Jean.” The notes don’t lie, man. He was as Machiavellian as they come.



Quincy Jones on the Secret Michael Jackson and the Problem With Modern Pop

 

[bobyoung53]

Quincy Jones apologizes to Paul McCartney

However, Jones walked back these statements. He said that after making these statements, his daughters staged an intervention. They apparently weren’t fans of what he said. Afterward, he apologized for what he said.

He said he’s proud of his daughters. He said “I have LEARNED MY LESSON. Let me tell you, I’m so grateful for my daughters because they aren’t scared to stand up to their daddy. I am an imperfect human & I’m not afraid to say it. And I’m sorry & I’m not afraid to say it.”

Paul said Jones called him after giving the infamous interview so he could apologize. Paul seemed to forgive Jones for what he said. “I love Quincy, even after this. He’s a crazy mother######. But I respect him, he’s done a lot of very good things.”



Beatles: Quincy Jones Said They Were the 'Worst Musicians in the World'

 

[bobyoung53]

Beatles are, by far, the most over-rated band in history. But, I do like the Beatles, and always have. At the time, their music was revolutionary. I think they are also the first band to record in stereo (I heard that somewhere). In reality though, they're just a pop band strumming 3 chord progressions, with no soul in anything but the lyrics. Then...acid expansion. Haha. But, Beatles will never die.

What's funny is, nobody mentions that punk rock is the exact same thing, just faster. 3 chord strumming to a simple, repetitive drum beat. With the lyrics being the focal point. Nobody bashes punk bands (nowadays) like they bash the Beatles. And, the Beatles actually sound good.

So...whatever yo. Punk rock

She's Leaving Home: I don't think this is punk rock.

 

[bobyoung53]

Geniuses very often choose their words very carefully. And they interpret them just as carefully. Quincy Jones is a genius, but also a s**t talker. In his case he can back it up.

More context? The Beatles had hit records in the UK and Europe before they ever came to the U.S. Their first UK #1 was in 1963. They didn't come to the U.S. until 1964. Quincy Jones was playing Jazz in Europe in the early 60's. He started producing pop music for singers like Lesley Gore in 1963, which hit number 1 in the U.S and #8 in the U.K. No doubt some of Q's jazz snobbery came into play, because the musicians on records like that were studio professionals - very often people who played record dates in the daytime and jazz gigs at night. That was the culture. In addition to producing pop records at that time, Q was also the VP of a record label and scoring movie soundtracks. He very likely heard The Beatles before a lot of people did - he had produced records that were competing on the U.S. and U.K. charts. That's part of the context for that first impression.

Quincy apologized and admitted he was talking through his hat, in fact his daughters staged an intervention and he then apologized to McCartney. I think that people who are in their late 60's like me probably have a much better vantage point from which to judge the Beatles impact on the 60's and music period than a lot the youngsters here who are reinventing history, I not pointing the finger at you.

 

[bobyoung53]

His playing may not be "great", and he does sometimes play pretty simply, depending on the song, but he also has some really creative, lyrical parts; "Something" and "Penny Lane" come to mind for me.

Something a lot of people here seem to miss is that there were no pop bass virtuosos back then, no bass solos on 45 rpm single records (except for My Generation The Who) or even on LP's, nothing like that until at least the late 60's, a band like Canned Heat comes to mind with Larry Taylor. Plenty of bass solos in jazz but none in pop records so you had to judge how good these players were in the context of their output. Paul always played in the context of the whole song, I've even seen people here on TB post isolated McCartney parts and laugh at them because they were so simple.
There were a lot of bass hooks back then, 3 note little hooks that the song was based on etc but that's about it.
I think the closest we had to a virtuoso on pop music during the 60's was Jamerson who had a jazz background and had been an upright player so he brought that sensibility to electric bass. I'm sure he could have done great solos if he were given the chance but I have never heard one.
McCartney was an anti soloist as were the Beatles as a whole, they all played their parts to contribute to the song as a whole, not much over playing on any Beatles tune that I've ever heard.

 

[TyBo]

I'm gonna keep saying this as long as some people keep outright ignoring it - as I just said on the previous page (with added emphasis here), " ... Not even Q himself stands behind that criticism. And it's not disrespecting Q to point out the holes in the quoted opinion, appeals to authority notwithstanding. And, one more time, I've been listening to Quincy's music for over half a century, I'm WELL aware of who he is and what he's done. Doesn't mean he's infallible, or doesn't talk out of his ass once in a blue moon."

The Beatles, objectively, were NOT "the worst musicians in the world", even back in the early Sixties. They performed hit after hit, and were tremendously effective in supporting their songs and putting them across (not to mention writing them and singing them. Go ahead, get together with three of your friends and do those songs as well as they did - harder than one might think, to do them that well.

Arguments dismissing Beatles defenders as "fanboys", or dismissing clear facts that exist both on video and in recordings and writings from that time, are simply not looking at this stuff rationally, to put it bluntly. As spelled out earlier at length, literally dozens of accomplished bassists state unequivocally the influence that the Beatles, and McCartney specifically, have had. I think such musicians know very well who influenced them.

If the Beatles aren't one's cup of tea (and while I like them, my favorite music comes from before their era), that's no good reason to ignore the historical fact of their enormous influence and musical accomplishment. Those Ed Sullivan appearances turned the world on its ear, and the pop charts were never the same afterwards.

 

[ShoeManiac]

I'm simply staggered by the density of people who cannot comprehend the context of the question: "What were your first impressions?" and that those might exist at a given moment in time.

We do not always have the benefit of perfect hindsight, which is clearly on display in this thread. And far too many people who should be smarter don't seem to be willing to recognize or acknowledge that even the opinion of an educated jazz snob about an artist or band can change depending on the continued output of that artist or band.

 

[TyBo]

I'm simply staggered by the density of people who cannot comprehend the context of the question: "What were your first impressions?" and that those might exist at a given moment in time.

We do not always have the benefit of perfect hindsight, which is clearly on display in this thread. And far too many people who should be smarter don't seem to be willing to recognize or acknowledge that even the opinion of an educated jazz snob about an artist or band can change depending on the continued output of that artist or band.

For heavens sake, Quincy Jones HIMSELF has disavowed those "first impressions" quotes. On that basis alone, your point is moot. Not to mention the various other ways in which it's already been addressed ad infinitum throughout this long thread.

 

[marchone]

Something a lot of people here seem to miss is that there were no pop bass virtuosos back then, no bass solos on 45 rpm single records or even on LP's, nothing like that until at least the late 60's, a band like Canned Heat comes to mind with Larry Taylor. Plenty of bass solos in jazz but none in pop records so you had to judge how good these players were in the context of their output. Paul always played in the context of the whole song, I've even seen people here on TB post isolated McCartney parts and laugh at them because they were so simple.
There were a lot of bass hooks back then, 3 note little hooks that the song was based on etc but that's about it.
I think the closest we had to a virtuoso on pop music during the 60's was Jamerson who had a jazz background and had been an upright player so he brought that sensibility to electric bass. I'm sure he could have done great solos if he were given the chance but I have never heard one.
McCartney was an anti soloist as were the Beatles as a whole, they all played their parts to contribute to the song as a whole, not much over playing on any Beatles tune that I've ever heard.

My Generation The Who 1965

 

[-Asdfgh-]

I don't see how Jones can disavow opinions as he had them and voiced them. He can say that he thinks that he was wrong, but he can't unsay.

 

[bobyoung53]

I don't see how Jones can disavow opinions as he had them and voiced them. He can say that he thinks that he was wrong, but he can't unsay.

Maybe he was toasted when he said them?