Reasonable expectations for buying a used bass?

[lug]

The only way to acceptibly resolve this to to send said bass to me for final judgement/arbitration. My fees are quite reasonable in my opinion. No need to thank me for my service, the service is reward enough (after fees).

 

[lowfreqgeek]

"Playabilty" and instrument setup are really subjective, to a point. If you *know* that you're picky about the setup, then it's probably best to not buy sight-unseen because you'll inevitably be disappointed.

At the same time, if you are picky and you did by it sight-unseen, I do think it's unreasonable to expect that the seller should have judged by your exacting standards. If you are going to buy used, you have to accept the risk that the instrument may not meet your personal standards, which is generally no fault of an honest seller.

If you're picky about your setup, then you should also have the skills to do the work - including leveling/crowning frets - and expect that to be part of buying a used instrument sight unseen. Maybe that's "lowering your standard", or maybe it's just being realistic and recognizing that meeting your standard might require some effort on your part.

 

[B-Mac]

It has been my observation here on TB that many peeps have unreasonable expectations as well as do not grill the seller with appropriate questions about the instrument being sold.

The majority of my basses have been purchased used and online.

Only once was there an issue. It was a significant ding on a corner of the headstock that was not in any picture even though that very same corner of the headstock was pictured. A discount was provided as apparently the significant ding happened when the instrument was taken out of storage and then packed for shipment all after the sale.

My advice: ask questions even if to the point of annoyance. And especially don’t let the excitement of obtaining a bass you’ve been lusting for cloud your judgement. And lastly, do not be in a hurry.

 

[mdogs]

"Playabilty" and instrument setup are really subjective, to a point. If you *know* that you're picky about the setup, then it's probably best to not buy sight-unseen because you'll inevitably be disappointed.

At the same time, if you are picky and you did by it sight-unseen, I do think it's unreasonable to expect that the seller should have judged by your exacting standards. If you are going to buy used, you have to accept the risk that the instrument may not meet your personal standards, which is generally no fault of an honest seller.

If you're picky about your setup, then you should also have the skills to do the work - including leveling/crowning frets - and expect that to be part of buying a used instrument sight unseen. Maybe that's "lowering your standard", or maybe it's just being realistic and recognizing that meeting your standard might require some effort on your part.

This seems like a very reasonable answer. I have bought and sold many basses on here and have had only 1 issue and that was a finish issue on a trade and I ended up getting screwed on it. Regardless, playability is absolutely subjective and a single high fret is so minor, not to mention a high 19th fret (many of us wouldn't even know it was there.)

 

[MuseChaser]

...
As evidenced by a number of responses, this seems by some to be unreasonable. Obviously I don't agree, and if you are of such an opinion that contrasts with mine, well, as someone I love very much likes to say sometimes - "You do you." ...

I've always disliked that phrase, as it's usually preceded by the word "but" (as in, "but you do you"), with the rest of the implied statement being, "and I'll continue being a smarter, more correct, and just in general a better person."

If you are a superior person with standards that are now known to be far above those of normal mortal men and women, you could still engage in online transactions. Just ask the prospective seller to take the measurements you require, send videos of the bass being played at every fret with your setup specifications, or anything else that would further bulletproof the transaction, although vagaries in setup caused by changing atmospheric conditions during shipping are 100% unavoidable. The seller could then either meet your request, or acknowledge that they are not in the same elite strata you are and escape further interaction.

Or just stick to in-person transactions...nothing wrong with that. But hey... You do you.


And... we're still waiting to learn what "signs of a ski jump" means ....

 

[Pep]

When buying a used instrument online, specifically from an independent seller, do you think it's reasonable to expect the instrument to arrive to you as described by the seller, or do you accept there being issues with the instrument that were not disclosed prior? If so, which ones are acceptable and which aren't?

As you might suspect, I unfortunately am currently in a dispute with the seller of a bass I bought here on TB just a few days ago (who shall remain nameless out of courtesy). Despite assuring me in private conversation that there were no playability issues with the instrument at all and that the instrument received a recent setup from a very highly reputable shop local to the seller (as in, you've probably heard of them), the bass arrived with an obvious high fret (the 19th), and is showing signs of a ski jump per a thorough evaluation from a local tech whose judgement I trust. In the midst of this dispute the seller has told me that I'm being unrealistic and that I need to lower my expectations.

What do you think? Are these issues acceptable? What would you do in such a situation?

(mods, feel free to move this if it belongs somewhere else)

First of all after reading both of your "long" posts on this thread, I believe you're a bit "Over The Top" and right now my sympathy goes to the seller.
Also, we all play instruments differently so perhaps the seller doesn't play a lot around the 18th fret so it wasn't obvious to him because it didn't affect
his playing style.

1) If any of this is referring to the set-up of the bass, "high fret included", you're expecting way too much.. Sometimes you get lucky and you get a bass that needs absolutely nothing, but that's usually not the case. A set-up, new strings and even some fret leveling should be an expected expense.

2) If there is an obvious problem with the neck that cannot be corrected with a truss rod adjustment then you may have a valid concern, but some of that
depends on how low you expect the action to be.

As a side note, it may not have been your intent but your responses don't read like you're looking for advice on this issue. You're telling us how why you're right and the seller is wrong. It's a bit arrogant and condescending.

JMHO.

 

[DJ Bebop]

Well, there certainly have been a range of opinions on this issue, and I thank you sincerely for sharing all, and I mean all of them, the ones I agree with just as much as the ones I don't.

After two pages of varying viewpoints it's apparent to me that my expectations really are on the high side compared to some of you for what constitutes acceptable playability of an instrument deemed as such. I'd like to propose a definition, which is this: "When set up to the relief and string height specified by the manufacturer (or a commonly accepted measurement), all notes on the fretboard will speak clearly and consistently when playing with light to moderate articulation (plucking-picking)". I find this to be fair, and I remain firmly of the opinion that an instrument, whether new, used, vintage, whatever - should be maintained to these standards, among others, to be deemed in fully playable condition.

As evidenced by a number of responses, this seems by some to be unreasonable. Obviously I don't agree, and if you are of such an opinion that contrasts with mine, well, as someone I love very much likes to say sometimes - "You do you." I will respect our differences here. This of course presents an unfortunate conundrum, though, which is that the more a definition is open to interpretation, the less reliable it is. That I would never sell or buy at asking price an instrument with the issues demonstrated in my video in my previous post, yet many on here deem it a non-issue, is proof of this. As such, I don't know who I can trust and who I can't. None of us really can. The only practical choice if choosing to continue to use the TB bass marketplace and limit one's risk of disappointment is to lower one's standards to what the consensus deems acceptable.

Given that this has now been elucidated, coupled with the fact that I'm not lowering my standards, the practical application for me is rather simple - no more buying instruments sight unseen from people I don't know to have the same definition of "playability" that I do. Thankfully there are shops to patronize, and the possibility of in person peer-to-peer transactions, of which I have had many and they've all gone wonderfully. Limiting my purchases to those in which I know I can place my trust is the only acceptable move for me going forward.

“All thel notes on the fretboard will speak clearly and consistently on my bass.”

I understand what your requirements are now. But to suggest that someone is being dishonest because their idea of playability is not yours is a bit harsh.

Take James as an example. His bass was very playable for him, as seen from his recording output. For you it obviously would not be, knowing what we know about him and you.

I have a bass that I have had for years that I had set up with a little high action on purpose since I got it. The other day, I decided to go with a lower setup and lighter strings. I found I had one high fret that wouldn't let me get my light gauge strings low enough without that fret buzzing. I had to break out my tools and bring down that fret. If I had sold that bass before I did and knew all of that, I would have considered the bass playable and problem-free. Probably like James if he sold his bass.



PS I find your definition troubling as well,
"When set up to the relief and string height specified by the manufacturer (or a commonly accepted measurement), all notes on the fretboard will speak clearly and consistently when playing with light to moderate articulation (plucking-picking)".

I find some factory specs a bit high and using a light to moderate attack can hide fret problems as well up and down the neck. Again there are many factors involved in checking out an instrument to buy.

PPS the folks that “liked” my post didn't see my PS so they may not agree with the additional PS

 

[sunbeast]

I find your expectations are unreasonable. First its just a single fret - something that can easily happen during transportation. Second, when you press hard it works, so often a friend of mine had buzzing of his guitars and I did not because I press differently on the fret. Also the setup shifts with temperature changes, so when setup higher it could easily not have been an issue at all

The question is. is the bass as described in terms of scratches, electronics, fret problems etc? Is the bass well playable (seems with the exception of the 18th fret yes). So I find it a bit unreasonable from a private seller.
Dressing that frets takes like 2 minutes.


Not sure why the seller should cover a single fret that when pressed hard is working normally.

To avoid a possible return which might be even more costly to everyone involved

 

[iTzPrime]

To avoid a possible return which might be even more costly to everyone involved

I find his standards completely nonsensical. Also unless the seller is commercial, he doesn't have to do anything. The bass was delivered in seemingly the described condition.

 

[SLO Surfer]

Well, there certainly have been a range of opinions on this issue, and I thank you sincerely for sharing all, and I mean all of them, the ones I agree with just as much as the ones I don't.

After two pages of varying viewpoints it's apparent to me that my expectations really are on the high side compared to some of you for what constitutes acceptable playability of an instrument deemed as such. I'd like to propose a definition, which is this: "When set up to the relief and string height specified by the manufacturer (or a commonly accepted measurement), all notes on the fretboard will speak clearly and consistently when playing with light to moderate articulation (plucking-picking)". I find this to be fair, and I remain firmly of the opinion that an instrument, whether new, used, vintage, whatever - should be maintained to these standards, among others, to be deemed in fully playable condition.

As evidenced by a number of responses, this seems by some to be unreasonable. Obviously I don't agree, and if you are of such an opinion that contrasts with mine, well, as someone I love very much likes to say sometimes - "You do you." I will respect our differences here. This of course presents an unfortunate conundrum, though, which is that the more a definition is open to interpretation, the less reliable it is. That I would never sell or buy at asking price an instrument with the issues demonstrated in my video in my previous post, yet many on here deem it a non-issue, is proof of this. As such, I don't know who I can trust and who I can't. None of us really can. The only practical choice if choosing to continue to use the TB bass marketplace and limit one's risk of disappointment is to lower one's standards to what the consensus deems acceptable.

Given that this has now been elucidated, coupled with the fact that I'm not lowering my standards, the choice for me is simple - no more buying instruments sight unseen from people I don't know to have the same definition of "playability" that I do. Thankfully there are shops to patronize, and the possibility of in person peer-to-peer transactions, of which I have had many and they've all gone wonderfully. Limiting my purchases to those in which I know I can place my trust is the only acceptable move for me going forward.

your description of these events has lead to more questions being asked than answers given among the TB members. Try answering all these questions one by one and reading the responses if you want true feedback from the TalkBass community regarding your particular situation.

You didn’t answer even one (1) question from the people you came asking for opinions from. Rather than answering those questions and digging in to the substance of this issue with us, you have interpreted the questions/responses you don’t agree with as you just having higher standards than the rest of us. (Which in a way puts many of your TB peers down, intended or not)

In your video and through your texts one gets a sense you are holding back a massive fury you have burning inside regarding this. I do hope you feel better soon!

 

[iTzPrime]

After two pages of varying viewpoints it's apparent to me that my expectations really are on the high side compared to some of you for what constitutes acceptable playability of an instrument deemed as such.

t seems that the bass was delivered in the described conditions and with the exception of the 18th fret was in a perfectible playable condition. Everyone has a different setup requirement and as such, you have to except to setup any bass (regardless of buying new or used) - to properly fit you. If you don't expect this when buying a bass, you will be disappointed with every online purchase you made.

I'd like to propose a definition, which is this: "When set up to the relief and string height specified by the manufacturer (or a commonly accepted measurement), all notes on the fretboard will speak clearly and consistently when playing with light to moderate articulation (plucking-picking)".

But why does it has to be a specific string height/relief. Again if you pressed hard enough in your video the 18th fret was still fine. The questio is what is light to moderate articiulation for you? Playing mostly metal, my moderate is very likely to be very hard for you.

As evidenced by a number of responses, this seems by some to be unreasonable. Obviously I don't agree, and if you are of such an opinion that contrasts with mine, well, as someone I love very much likes to say sometimes - "You do you.

This just seems like you look down on anyone accepting the condition of the bass. For me it just says that you have no real grasp on what to except of any instrument when buying it.

That I would never sell or buy at asking price an instrument with the issues demonstrated in my video in my previous post, yet many on here deem it a non-issue, is proof of this. As such, I don't know who I can trust and who I can't. None of us really can. The only practical choice if choosing to continue to use the TB bass marketplace and limit one's risk of disappointment is to lower one's standards to what the consensus deems acceptable.

The fret issue is literally a 2-3 minute fix. It is not a real issue. It seems that the rest of the instrument is working perfectly fine. So you can trust most people selling on bass forums and I have yet to be disappointed.
You don't have to lower your standard, you just have to know what a reasonable request when selling an instrument is.

Is the finishes as stated, is the pickup/electronics properly working, is the truss rod working and the neck is good working order, are the frets as worn as described, is the instrument clean?

What you can not expect is a perfect setup - you do that, and it is just not the reality. It is not in the seller's tasks to setup the instrument. Furthermore a lot of sellers don't even know how to setup an instrument.

Given that this has now been elucidated, coupled with the fact that I'm not lowering my standards, the choice for me is simple - no more buying instruments sight unseen from people I don't know to have the same definition of "playability" that I do. Thankfully there are shops to patronize, and the possibility of in person peer-to-peer transactions, of which I have had many and they've all gone wonderfully. Limiting my purchases to those in which I know I can place my trust is the only acceptable move for me going forward.

You do you, but the basses I bought online were nearly always setup a lot better than the shops.

 

[Scott Lynch]

It’s one thing to have a disagreement, folks, but if the things I have stated in my previous posts have caused you offense, please accept my sincere apologies, and please know that offending you was not my intent. If it still seems like I don’t value your opinions, all I can say is, I’ve read every single post here and am still processing everything. I wasn’t listening to you as well as I should have at first, but now I believe I am.

And I want to make it really clear that just because I am particularly picky, even downright snobbish with certain interests in my life (don’t even get me started on coffee…), I sure as hell do NOT think I’m better than any of you or somehow superior as a person. There is no question that each of you possess hard earned knowledge and skills, musical and otherwise, and offer value to those around you in ways that I could not, and could each teach me something. In fact, many of you already have in this thread.

It is true that I was quite upset when these issues arose on the bass and my words were tainted with anger despite an attempt to present a reasoned argument. The seller and I have reached an amicable agreement, and I want to state that I do in fact believe that he was acting in good faith from the start, telling the truth, and seems to be a good guy as far as I can tell.

To have been the inspiration of so much negativity is quite a regret and is truly weighing on me right now. Again, I am sorry.

 

[iTzPrime]

It’s one thing to have a disagreement, folks, but if the things I have stated in my previous posts have caused you offense, please accept my sincere apologies, and please know that offending you was not my intent. If it still seems like I don’t value your opinions, all I can say is, I’ve read every single post here and am still processing everything. I wasn’t listening to you at first, but now I am.

And I want to make it really clear that just because I am particularly picky, even downright snobbish with certain interests in my life (don’t even get me started on coffee…), I sure as hell do NOT think I’m better than any of you or somehow superior as a person. There is no question that each of you possess hard earned knowledge and skills, musical and otherwise, and offer value to those around you in ways that I could not, and could each teach me something. In fact, many of you already have in this thread.

It is true that I was quite upset when these issues arose on the bass and my words were tainted with anger despite an attempt to present a reasoned argument. The seller and I have reached an amicable agreement, and I want to state that I do in fact believe that he was acting in good faith from the start, telling the truth, and seems to be a good guy as far as I can tell.

To have been the inspiration of so much negativity is quite a regret and is truly weighing on me right now. Again, I am sorry.

No problem. My mistake then. Good to hear you got everything sorted

 

[TroyK]

Closing at the OP's request. I agree that it's run it's course.