Recording SVT output transformer comparo...stock vs. Heyboer

#22
There are fewer variables if you use the Countryman but I guess as long as you used the same cab and same mic with the same placement that should at least keep the colourations from that setup consistent. Can you do both? It would be interesting to hear the differences between the DI and the mic even from the same amp. You're going to need to crank those mofos to get good data because OTs that might be identical at 1W out might be quite different at the clip point.
Sounds like a terrible, not fun at all job. :D
 
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#25
JimmyM said:
So yesterday I got a second Heritage SVT rig:

IMG_0936_zpseebyxzoe.jpg


Yeah, I know.

The new one is bone stock while the old one from 2013 has a Heyboer output transformer spec'd on an original Blue Line transformer. I got the Heyboer after a couple discussions on here and some consultations with Ampeg employees who were very big on it. Been a great tranny and the price was right so I'm glad I got it. But since this new one is going to be a house amp at a couple venues we play regularly and available to other acts when we're not playing, I skipped the Heyboer. Of course, I AB'd them rigorously by ear for an hour when I first got the new one yesterday. I'm not so sure I hear any differences between the stock OT and the Heyboer (both have the stock JJ tubes all around), but then with the lag time between switching them out, sometimes I think I do hear slight differences but then I forget what the other one sounded like. All I can tell is they're very very close in tones and the stocker is no slouch at all.

So tomorrow I'm going to record them to try and get a better fix, but I have a couple questions about the best way to do it.

1. I'm going to record them with a Type 85 DI between the heads' speaker out and cab, but I'm wondering if I should also mic the cab. Seems to me to be rather pointless when the goal is hearing the amp as plainly as you can, no? I'm going to record samples both clean and with power tube distortion, but even for them, I think I'm better off recording them straight into my DAW. What do you all think?

B. Of course I'll let each amp warm up fully, but is it better to let them warm up for a couple hours vs doing it after about 15 minutes of warmup? Does it make much of a difference? We've pretty much decided that an amp is going to get about as warmed up as it's ever going to be after about 15 minutes, right?

Thx in advance for answering questions I should have known the answers to already :D But it never hurts to double check yourself when doing something this important.
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1. I agree with this approach, since the cabs are in the circuit after the thing you're testing (the OT). No sense getting fooled by a cab difference.

2. You don't need any extra warm up time; only playing really warms up the iron in these things.

How loud can you get on these tests? I'd expect that where you might hear a difference is as you get up toward saturating the OT, into hairy tone country.

EDIT: A really strict test would use the same cab on both amps, so they see exactly the same load - that eliminates any possible impedance differences.
 
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#28
I'd stick with just the Countryman for simplicity, but no harm setting up a mic if you're not moving it between tests. If you're pushing any gain the raw feed from the Countryman will likely sound like hot garbage, so a mic on the cab might be a better representation in that case.

What about the difference in t00bs tho?! The tubes in the one are 3 years more "vintage" than the other! ;)
 
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#29
JimmyM said:
So yesterday I got a second Heritage SVT rig:

IMG_0936_zpseebyxzoe.jpg


Yeah, I know.

The new one is bone stock while the old one from 2013 has a Heyboer output transformer spec'd on an original Blue Line transformer. I got the Heyboer after a couple discussions on here and some consultations with Ampeg employees who were very big on it. Been a great tranny and the price was right so I'm glad I got it. But since this new one is going to be a house amp at a couple venues we play regularly and available to other acts when we're not playing, I skipped the Heyboer. Of course, I AB'd them rigorously by ear for an hour when I first got the new one yesterday. I'm not so sure I hear any differences between the stock OT and the Heyboer (both have the stock JJ tubes all around), but then with the lag time between switching them out, sometimes I think I do hear slight differences but then I forget what the other one sounded like. All I can tell is they're very very close in tones and the stocker is no slouch at all.

So tomorrow I'm going to record them to try and get a better fix, but I have a couple questions about the best way to do it.

1. I'm going to record them with a Type 85 DI between the heads' speaker out and cab, but I'm wondering if I should also mic the cab. Seems to me to be rather pointless when the goal is hearing the amp as plainly as you can, no? I'm going to record samples both clean and with power tube distortion, but even for them, I think I'm better off recording them straight into my DAW. What do you all think?

B. Of course I'll let each amp warm up fully, but is it better to let them warm up for a couple hours vs doing it after about 15 minutes of warmup? Does it make much of a difference? We've pretty much decided that an amp is going to get about as warmed up as it's ever going to be after about 15 minutes, right?

Thx in advance for answering questions I should have known the answers to already :D But it never hurts to double check yourself when doing something this important.
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NEWSFLASH... JimmyM Buys An Ampeg Rig. G.A.S. at 11. drool

The two of them look so happy together. :bassist:
 
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#30
Michael Schreiber said:
First fo all: @JimmyM Congrats! \m/

One question about the OT comparison: That would require to have it played quite loud, right? Or does an OT have hearable coloration/influence on the sound at lower volume?
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Yes, I will be pushing it very hard. I figured I'd record one sample with the power amp just barely being pushed hard, and one with it being pushed quite hard. I think to do much more than that wouldn't tell me any more than I need to know, and it would only serve to aggravate my wife. I will also do a clean sample as well, though you're right that I was told by one guy at Ampeg that it makes more difference when you're pushing it.

Just asking, since my first thought was A/Bing the live, as well; one rig to the left, one to the right - at reasonable volume. But at certain volume, I guess, the room would take over coloring the sound, masking any OT influence. Is that right?
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Definitely. The room totally has an influence, with the one closest to the corner having more perceived bottom end.
 
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#31
NKBassman said:
I'd stick with just the Countryman for simplicity, but no harm setting up a mic if you're not moving it between tests. If you're pushing any gain the raw feed from the Countryman will likely sound like hot garbage, so a mic on the cab might be a better representation in that case.
Click to expand...
It will, yes, but I can knock high end off the DI tracks with an EQ plugin to make it more representative, and I want the extra high end on the track itself just to see what happens.

What about the difference in t00bs tho?! The tubes in the one are 3 years more "vintage" than the other! ;)
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At this point, more like 4 :D But they're all the same brand and style of tubes (JJ's come stock in them), and I've rarely pushed that amp hard at all. One thing is for sure...I am not changing tubes out. If that poops my test, so be it.
 
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#32
JimmyM said:
I think to do much more than that wouldn't tell me any more than I need to know, and it would only serve to aggravate my wife.
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And your stomach, too; I remember your impressive explanation on maximum volume of a V-4B compared to an SVT; that you could barely stand being in the same room with the V-4B's Master at max, whereas an SVT would make you puke. So, A/Bing them simultaneously (left + right) would allow to perform a double-puke-combo-move :D

JimmyM said:
Definitely. The room totally has an influence, with the one closest to the corner having more perceived bottom end.
Click to expand...

Thank you!
 
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#33
JimmyM said:
Yes, I will be pushing it very hard. I figured I'd record one sample with the power amp just barely being pushed hard, and one with it being pushed quite hard. I think to do much more than that wouldn't tell me any more than I need to know, and it would only serve to aggravate my wife. I will also do a clean sample as well, though you're right that I was told by one guy at Ampeg that it makes more difference when you're pushing it.


Definitely. The room totally has an influence, with the one closest to the corner having more perceived bottom end.
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Didn't you already do that by simply rolling it into the driveway in the 1st place? :D

FWIW, I'd use a looper & A/B switcher for direct, quick comparisons. But I'm a lazy bastard.

Congrats on the new rig, Jimmy.
 
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#34
JimmyM said:
It will, yes, but I can knock high end off the DI tracks with an EQ plugin to make it more representative, and I want the extra high end on the track itself just to see what happens.


At this point, more like 4 :D But they're all the same brand and style of tubes (JJ's come stock in them), and I've rarely pushed that amp hard at all. One thing is for sure...I am not changing tubes out. If that poops my test, so be it.
Click to expand...

Tube-to-tube anymore, best you can do usually is make sure you set the bias the same on both amps.
 
#35
JimmyM said:
It will, yes, but I can knock high end off the DI tracks with an EQ plugin to make it more representative, and I want the extra high end on the track itself just to see what happens.


At this point, more like 4 :D But they're all the same brand and style of tubes (JJ's come stock in them), and I've rarely pushed that amp hard at all. One thing is for sure...I am not changing tubes out. If that poops my test, so be it.
Click to expand...

For the record, I was being facetious about the tubes. :)
 
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#37
bassfran said:
Didn't you already do that by simply rolling it into the driveway in the 1st place? :D

FWIW, I'd use a looper & A/B switcher for direct, quick comparisons. But I'm a lazy bastard.

Congrats on the new rig, Jimmy.
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Thanks Fran! Can't do the AB switch, though...using the same cab for the comparisons defeats that.
 
#39
Michael Schreiber said:
First fo all: @JimmyM Congrats! \m/

One question about the OT comparison: That would require to have it played quite loud, right? Or does an OT have hearable coloration/influence on the sound at lower volume?

Just asking, since my first thought was A/Bing the live, as well; one rig to the left, one to the right - at reasonable volume. But at certain volume, I guess, the room would take over coloring the sound, masking any OT influence. Is that right?
Click to expand...

That's the other reason to do DI only. ;) Not to mention the rafters shaking and the dust falling coloring the sound...
 
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