Double Bass Rushing or Dragging on Recordings

[Bruce Calin]

This is the kind of discussion I hoped would develop. Back when I was a young pro player the older guys I played with were often from the big band era and were very strict about rhythm and groove. Being able to swing while maintaining tempo was the goal. Maybe that's why it's something I've always been aware of. The groups I was referring to in my OP were mainly small, mostly pickup jazz outfits. I wasn't trying to make value judgements, simply noticing it on some of these recordings and speculating on the possible reasons. Of course there are many, but that's what makes it interesting IMO. I'm too lazy to list all the stuff I listened to and didn't write them down in any case, but anybody can do the same thing and see if they agree or not. It can also help to develop deeper listening skills, I believe, which we can all use.

 

[Don Kasper]

This is the kind of discussion I hoped would develop. Back when I was a young pro player the older guys I played with were often from the big band era and were very strict about rhythm and groove. Being able to swing while maintaining tempo was the goal. Maybe that's why it's something I've always been aware of. The groups I was referring to in my OP were mainly small, mostly pickup jazz outfits. I wasn't trying to make value judgements, simply noticing it on some of these recordings and speculating on the possible reasons. Of course there are many, but that's what makes it interesting IMO. I'm too lazy to list all the stuff I listened to and didn't write them down in any case, but anybody can do the same thing and see if they agree or not. It can also help to develop deeper listening skills, I believe, which we can all use.

My interest in this topic is as a player/participant in everything from duos to small big bands in nearly 50 years. A casual or even serious "listener" (non-jazz-musician) may not have the same visceral reactions (+ and/or -) that an Actual Participant/Jazz Bassist may have. (Sorry to sound Elitist, but I think this is a significant factor in how we "listen for," and "feel" time".
Now, my Metronome tells me it's time for lunch.
Thanks, Bruce ,for an interesting thread topic.

 

[AK Bass Guy]

Don’t some instruments that tend to take longer to “bloom” tend to create the habit of making those musicians rush a bit? I’be played some double bass and tuba back in the day and when the music required you to be square on the down you kinda had to rush the note a little. Tuba was probably the hardest to get the lower notes right on the down.
Or what sounded like being right on the downbeat.

 

[2tonic]

A parallel you may find interesting, is that tempo can seem to change due to where the musicians, individually and collectively, place themselves in the pocket.
Several Stevie Ray Vaughn tunes appear to slow when the band joins in after the guitar intro, but checked against a metronome, they are right on.

A few years back, I saw a video that examined Led Zep's "Kashmir" and "When The Levi Breaks" by putting them through ProTools. Bonham, who I think most would consider a rock solid drummer, was all over the pocket. Ahead, square, and behind, measure by measure. So they quantized it to be "perfect", and it sounded like trash.
You know, the way a third set inebriated, untalented bar band sounds, covering those tunes. They lost all their life and space. The tension and grace of the music just disappeared.
I found it quite enlightening.

 

[Groove Doctor]

I have heard bands play with a varying tempo and sound amazing
I have heard bands play with a rock solid tempo and sound awful

I think there is a difference between a band that wanders
because they're not paying attention to the time
and one that wanders because they are paying attention to the time.

Totally agree. Massive distinction between the two.

recordings, like posed studio photographs, can reveal the occasional hair out of place.

Well said.

I’ve listened back to some outstanding gigs we’ve played and you don’t notice the imperfections at the time. It’s all about the energy and the vibe, and interacting with a living audience.

 

[5StringBlues]

This is one of the most ridiculous movies in the history of film.

 

[lurk]

About the Aebersold recordings: people have told me (sorry to sound like ***** with that phrase!) that when they shifted from physical formats to streaming they smoothed out the fluctuations in tempo electronically that those master musicians made when they laid down the tracks so that the tempo is constant throughout. Anyone know if this is true? If so, it tells an important tale.