Stage volume vs PA

kev451

kev451

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Feb 23, 2014
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#1
90D1DA99-46C5-45A8-A072-F54B472201CD.jpeg So, I’m in a band where we have the constant argument of getting better cabs to push stage volume(me pushing this) vs them using Marshall combo amps to push stage volume to push the bands on stage volume(them). Now this is what I’m running

Tech21 Landmark 300w bass head
Mesa Boogie 2X10, 1x15 Geddy Lee MIJ with Sadowsky onboard preamp.
Pedalboard-DG supersymnetry compressor, Tech21Qstrip and Sans Amp paradriver.

1st guitar player Marshall 2x10 combo

2nd Peavy 2x10 combo both push 200watts.

I think that they should get Amps which at least have 15” speakers with more power to match my own. (I’m not overbearingly loud). I’ve played in bands where full cabs were used and combos where bigger speakers were used and never had this issue, up until now.

But live at each show afterwards everyone always compliments me on my sound but always say it lacks guitar punch and depth. Which has been my same point.

Each time I bring it up they just say why bother when the PA will just push their sound...which well apparently that doesn’t happen.

The places we play can hold anywhere from 100-350 people and usually have good draws. Any advice you guys can share to help to get them to understand that stage volume is important as well as amps being used. Here is a picture of the volume setting on my head.
 
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#2
kev451 said:
Tech21 Landmark 300w bass head
Mesa Boogie 2X10, 1x15
.....
1st guitar player Marshall 2x10 combo
2nd Peavy 2x10 combo both push 200watts.

I think that they should get Amps which at least have 15” speakers with more power to match my own.
......
But live at each show afterwards everyone always compliments me on my sound but always say it lacks guitar punch and depth. Which has been my same point.

Each time I bring it up they just say why bother when the PA will just push their sound...which well apparently that doesn’t happen.
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You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how speaker size relates to volume and tone, particularly when it comes to guitar cabs. It just doesn't work the way you think it works.

The solution to your problem is to get a better sound person who knows how to operate a PA correctly to get a good room mix.
 
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#3
I should have stated that, I’ve played in bands where full cabs and combos with bigger speakers were used and never had this issue, up until now. I’m fully aware of how sound works.

The places we play have pretty good sound guys. I just my guys to push the same power as I do on stage. The PA will always do their jobs but you need some stage power to compliment what the PA is doing.
 
#6
kev451 said:
I should have stated that, I’ve played in bands where full cabs and combos with bigger speakers were used and never had this issue, up until now. I’m fully aware of how sound works.

The places we play have pretty good sound guys. I just my guys to push the same power as I do on stage. The PA will always do their jobs but you need some stage power to compliment what the PA is doing.
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You literally don't. People play DI only all the time. Both guitar and bass. It sounds fine if you do it correctly.

You aren't fully aware of how sound works if you think speaker size indicates how something will sound. If you look at the frequency response graphs there are plenty of cabs with 10's that reproduce a lot more lows than cabs with 15's.

That being said, what 15" guitar cabs would you suggest they use? I haven't seen any since pedal steel players were using them in the 80's.
 
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#7
lz4005 said:
You literally don't. People play DI only all the time. Both guitar and bass. It sounds fine if you do it correctly.

You aren't fully aware of how sound works if you think speaker size indicates how something will sound. If you look at the frequency response graphs there are plenty of cabs with 10's that reproduce a lot more lows than cabs with 15's.

That being said, what 15" guitar cabs would you suggest they use? I haven't seen any since pedal steel players were using them in the 80's.
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....well ok then.
 
#9
kev451 said:
I should have stated that, I’ve played in bands where full cabs and combos with bigger speakers were used and never had this issue, up until now. I’m fully aware of how sound works.

The places we play have pretty good sound guys. I just my guys to push the same power as I do on stage. The PA will always do their jobs but you need some stage power to compliment what the PA is doing.
Click to expand...
On stage amps aren’t supposed to compliment the PA. On stage amps are simply monitors for the musicians to hear themselves and send signal to the front of house engineer. If the crowd can’t hear your guitars, your sound engineer is at fault. If your guitarists are playing 210 (probably 212), 200 watt combos, they have PLENTY. My lead guitarist plays a 15 watt 112 and my frontman plays a 5 watt 110. I use a 500 watt 212 or a 200 watt 115. We play bars, clubs, and festivals ranging from 400-10,000 people. Never an issue with anyone being heard.
 
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#10
MoeTown1986 said:
If your guitarists are playing 210 (probably 212), 200 watt combos, they have PLENTY.
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That brings up another important point. If his guitar players aren't setting their amps appropriately for their gigs, having different, theoretically larger, amps won't make the situation any better. The average 200w/2x10 guitar amp has the ability to be far louder than any 300w/2x10/1x15 bass rig.

I'd still like to know what kind of 400w 1x15 guitar amp OP thinks they should be using. I'm pretty sure those don't exist.
 
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#11
lz4005 said:
That brings up another important point. If his guitar players aren't setting their amps appropriately for their gigs, having different, theoretically larger, amps won't make the situation any better. The average 200w/2x10 guitar amp has the ability to be far louder than any 300w/2x10/1/15 bass rig.

I'd still like to know what kind of 400w 1x15 guitar amp OP thinks they should be using. I'm pretty sure those don't exist.
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Right!!! I’m with you.
 
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#13
kev451 said:
...The PA will always do their jobs but you need some stage power to compliment what the PA is doing.
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No, The stage sound should be completely independent of the PA sound except on very small stages where only vocals and synths go through the PA. I suspect actually that your louder setup might be making the sound person's job more difficult by messing with the PA mix balance. Try turning down and letting the PA carry the bass weight and see if you get better results.
Good luck bro!
 
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#14
lz4005 said:
That brings up another important point. If his guitar players aren't setting their amps appropriately for their gigs, having different, theoretically larger, amps won't make the situation any better. The average 200w/2x10 guitar amp has the ability to be far louder than any 300w/2x10/1x15 bass rig.

I'd still like to know what kind of 400w 1x15 guitar amp OP thinks they should be using. I'm pretty sure those don't exist.
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I’ve mentioned what you’ve said also, that in theory they should be louder or capable of it. But I cant believe that EVERY place we have played in almost 3 years has had a poopy sound guy. I take care to not be loud as I just want to be punchy and sit right in the mix with the drums. I have active basses and rarely go full active live I run them passive more often than not. The times I have I’ve lowered the volume of my bass to compensate for going active.
 
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#15
Bassbeater said:
No, The stage sound should be completely independent of the PA sound except on very small stages where only vocals and synths go through the PA. I suspect actually that your louder setup might be making the sound person's job more difficult by messing with the PA mix balance. Try turning down and letting the PA carry the bass weight and see if you get better results.
Good luck bro!
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Thanks next show I’ll pay more attention to my stage volume and see if this helps.
 
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#16
Bassbeater said:
No, The stage sound should be completely independent of the PA sound except on very small stages where only vocals and synths go through the PA. I suspect actually that your louder setup might be making the sound person's job more difficult by messing with the PA mix balance. Try turning down and letting the PA carry the bass weight and see if you get better results.
Good luck bro!
Click to expand...
I suspect this also.
 
#17
kev451 said:
But I cant believe that EVERY place we have played in almost 3 years has had a poopy sound guy.
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Why not? There's a lot of incompetent sound people out there. Particularly the ones that are provided for free by bars. I've run into exactly two really good ones out of my last 100 gigs where we didn't bring our own.

kev451 said:
I have active basses and rarely go full active live I run them passive more often than not. The times I have I’ve lowered the volume of my bass to compensate for going active.
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That has little or nothing to do with anything. Almost as irrelevant as the size of your guitar players' speakers.
 
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#19
lz4005 said:
Why not? There's a lot of incompetent sound people out there. Particularly the ones that are provided for free by bars. I've run into exactly two really good ones out of my last 100 gigs where we didn't bring our own.



That has little or nothing to do with anything. Almost as irrelevant as the size of your guitar players' speakers.
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Because this has been an issue that had been on going for about 3 years. Now mind you the moment they use full cabs we don’t have this issue...we have played several shows where bands have shared gear and they have had to use full cabs and heads and guess what we sound great...

and I DONT turn up when they use full cabs. But then the moment they go back to combos, we are back to square one.

And while some sound guys are either learning or don’t know I cant attribute this to EVERY one of them. That’s an unfair generalization.

So I’m gonna have to respectfully disagree with you.
 
#20
Kro said:
As others have said, unless the venues are extremely small, my best results are with minimum stage volume - essentially just enough to hear over the acoustic drums, with the rest being handled by the FOH system.

Again, as already noted, having stage bleed fight with the FOH sound can cause all sorts of problems.
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I don’t fight FOH sound. Usually once it’s set I’ll have one of the guitar players play something so I hear how my bass sits in the monitors. As I stated I’m very aware of my stage volume and how it impacts things.
 
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