Statement about major scales True/False?

#41
TheReceder said:
My assumption is there is an instance of stereo minds exploding... mine did too.

I've always been irritated with composers that use the notes E#, B#, Cb or Fb. I consider composers that use double flats and Double #s as people that simply want to confuse the average/ below average sight reader.

(I can imagine them sitting behind their desks giving out an evil chuckle every time they do it)
Click to expand...

Spell a C# Major Seventh chord (C#Maj7) - C#, E#, G#, B#. There is no other way, evil chuckle or not.

c-sharp-major-7th-chord-on-treble-clef.png


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Fº7 = F, A♭, C♭, E♭♭

f-diminished-7th-chord-on-treble-clef.png


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Dbmin7 = D♭, F♭, A♭, C♭

D7(#9) = D, F#, A, C, E#

Bb7(b9) = B♭, D, F, A♭, C♭

EAug = E, G#, B#

I can go on… :woot:

These spellings are actually used to NOT confuse a music reader.
 
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#42
200px-Music-natural.svg.png
200px-Music-natural.svg.png
Blissful_Lad said:
Spell a C# Major Seventh chord (C#Maj7) - C#, E#, G#, B#. There is no other way, evil chuckle or not.

View attachment 2962849

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Fº7 = F, A♭, C♭, E♭♭

View attachment 2962850

---------------------------------------------

Dbmin7 = D♭, F♭, A♭, C♭

D7(#9) = D, F#, A, C, E#

Bb7(b9) = B♭, D, F, A♭, C♭

EAug = E, G#, B#

I can go on… :woot:

These spellings are actually used to NOT confuse a music reader.
Click to expand...

I actually would prefer the use of the natural sign. Way easier to read.
 
#44
Blissful_Lad said:
That F♮ would be perfectly fine, if the chord was D♭ Maj7 - D♭, F, A♭, C.

C# Major Scale: C#, D#, E#, F#, G#, A#, B#. I don't see any F-naturals.

View attachment 2962870

:smug:
Click to expand...
When Possible, note an F with a natural natural instead of an E#. there are many instances I've seen where the notes aren't used in a chord where the author still uses the E# or B# instead of simply putting a natural accidental before a C or an F on the staff.

If I'm wrong that an E Sharp is an F Natural I may be completely off.
A C#Major 7=C#, F Natural, G#, C Natural
 
#46
It never ceases to amaze me that although or current musical system is based on a 12- tone scale, we still insist on trying to shoehorn it all into a bizarre 8- tone framework, and then need to concoct a dictionary of obscure terminology, an arcane set of naming conventions and a collection of arbitrary rules in order to attempt to address the problems that causes. It's like insisting on doing calculus using Roman numerals. And while that may well be doable, it's also incredibly inefficient and unnecessarily confusing.
 
#47
The example that comes to mind for me is the Bryan Adams song "Everything I Do" which is in D flat. So the chords in the bridge are

Cb / Fb / Cb / Gb / Db / Ab / Eb / Ab (all major chords).
(no I don't have that memorized, I had to look it up).

Then you go back into D flat key with the A flat acting as the V chord of the D flat key.

To avoid any double flats or double sharps (in the related scales of that sweet sweet bass fill you're doing in this part of the song:whistle:), you have to write the bridge as B/E/B/F#/Db/Ab/Eb/Ab. This makes absolutely no sense from a functional harmony standpoint, and going from a whole slew of flats to a whole slew of sharps (and right back again) would be super confusing to notate.
 
#48
TheReceder said:
If I'm wrong that an E Sharp is an F Natural I may be completely off.
A C#Major 7=C#, F Natural, G#, C Natural
Click to expand...

I'll put it this way: You are not correct. There are no F-naturals or C-naturals in a C#Maj7.

This, and most, chords are built by "stacking" thirds.

Look at it this way: Spell a C# Major Scale in thirds. Remember, this Key Signature has 7-Sharps.

C#, E#, G#, B#, D#, F#, A#

There are NO F-naturals or C-naturals.

Now, spell a D♭ Major Scale in thirds. This Key Signature has 5-Flats.

D♭, F, A♭, C, E♭, G♭, B♭

These two Chords, Key Signatures and Scales may sound the same played on a piano, but they are NOT the same theoretically. You can't mix them - if you want to stay "correct".
 
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#50
Phlipper said:
Is this statement true (checking my understanding of the Major scale)?

Any major scale that requires a double sharp or double flat when written out is said to 'not exist' only because writing/reading the enharmonic equivalent scale is easier.

True?
Click to expand...

No scale has a double sharp or double flat.
 
#51
Phlipper said:
Is this statement true (checking my understanding of the Major scale)?

Any major scale that requires a double sharp or double flat when written out is said to 'not exist' only because writing/reading the enharmonic equivalent scale is easier.

True?
Click to expand...

True.
Music practice avoids using Major key signatures that require double sharps or double flats in the key signature.

Though instead of "not exist", replace it with "theoretical key, not used in practice."

There are 15 Major key signatures: The 12, plus the enharmonic 3 of C#/Db, B/Cb, F#/Gb
 
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#55
TheReceder said:
If I'm wrong that an E Sharp is an F Natural I may be completely off.
A C#Major 7=C#, F Natural, G#, C Natural
Click to expand...
You are correct with your enharmonic comparisons that F natural and E# sound the same, but they are not the same notes on the page. You are incorrect in spelling out a C#Major7 on a page, although you offer an enharmonic equivalent, meaning it sounds the same. A chord needs a root, third, fifth, etc, based off of the scale degrees. When you spell your C#Major 7 chord with an F Natural instead of an E#, you are using the fourth and flatting it to achieve the role of a harmony's major third. When you use C Natural instead of B#, you are flatting the octave to achieve the major 7th of the chord. Sure it sounds the same, but it's the flatted fourth instead of the third and flatted octave instead of a major 7...on the page. As a bassist who's spent years sight reading on cruise ships every night as well as performing in orchestras, I'd rather have my chords, scales, and all sheet music spelled out correctly on the page.

Now, if you never sight read or write music for others, think of it however works best for you!
 
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#56
At the heart of this three page discussion are notational conventions. Here are the main ones:
  • There are only 7 sharps and flats, and they appear in order in the key signature.
  • You cannot mix sharps and flats in a key signature.
  • Major scales are in alphabetical order in every key. So you cannot have 2 Of the same letter in the same key.
  • No key signature includes a double sharp or double flat.
This is why you can’t just rename difficult scale degrees to the enharmonic equivalent, so C# Major has to be C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#. You are violating notational conventions by notating this as C# D# F F# G# A# C C#. You can’t have 2 types of C’s and 2 types of F’s in the same major scale.

This is also why you shouldn’t have a Db 7/B. You can’t have a Bb and a B natural in the same notated scale. Db 7/Cb is correct.

I see stuff like this all the time in the real world. I used to play a church gig, and the leader (a professional pianist) would pass out a rhythm chart in the key of E that looked like this: E A Gbm B Dbm A Eb dim E. Telling him “you shouldn’t mix sharps and flats” fell on deaf ears.
 
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#58
We'll agree to disagree. While it's been a few years since I've played in symphonies, it doesn't change my opinion that E#, Cb, B#, Fb, and double flats simply don't need to exist. Again it's my opinion that the natural accidental is much easier to read on the fly.

Of course, Maybe we could start using Capo's on basses and Play open strings in the Key of A###?
 
#59
TheReceder said:
We'll agree to disagree. While it's been a few years since I've played in symphonies, it doesn't change my opinion that E#, Cb, B#, Fb, and double flats simply don't need to exist. Again it's my opinion that the natural accidental is much easier to read on the fly.
Click to expand...

Personally, I find A much easier to read than B.

upload_2018-3-26_7-40-14.png

In A, it is very obvious that: (1) the figure is scalar, and follows the F# major scale of the key signature without alteration; (2) the E# is the major third of the C#7 chord; and (3) that there is a major second interval between the D# and the E#.

Conversely, in B: (1) the figure does not follow the diatonic scale; (2) the F natural looks like some sort of diminished fourth rather than the major third; and (3) the interval between the D# and the F looks like some sort of third, rather than a major second.

I would probably read A correctly 100% of the time. I might read B correctly or might not, but it would definitely cause me to do a double-take to figure out what's going on and that split second of hesitation could be enough to cause a sight-reading error.
 
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