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TalkCello - Bass Players here learning the Cello
- Thread starter SBassman
- Start date
There might be a couple reasons. The first is that in an orchestra, all of the players in a section need to be playing the same bowings. The other is getting used to sight-reading bowings along with the rest of the notations. And having the bowings marked is a good reminder so you practice it the same way each time.
When I took cello lessons, and likewise at my kids' string lessons, the teacher doesn't just mark bowings, but explains and discusses them. The teacher's hope is that you will eventually learn to come up with your own bowings. "Down bow on the down beat works until it doesn't" is a good starting point. Figuring out to get turned around so you can hit the next down beat, or an important "money note" the right way is part of the schtick, and it becomes mostly instinctive.
I've been to fiddle workshops, where the bowing is a bit looser, but they emphasize getting to the right half of the bow -- near the tip or the frog -- as needed for particular desired tones and figures. I watched one Scottish fiddler who played "up bow on the down beat," so she had a powerful back beat going all the time. That's important because historically there was no bassist, and a solo fiddler had to be able to propel dancers.
My son's cello teacher had a rule: "You can come up with your own bowings and fingerings, but you have to explain them to me." The point was it shouldn't just be random. An interesting tip I learned from him was that if you're choosing between two different fingerings, you should favor the one that makes the bowing work better.
For advanced students and performers, you're on your own.
In my own case, I'm mostly improvising, so honestly my bowing is all over the place. But "down bow on the down beat" is pretty deeply ingrained, so I somehow manage to get there when it's important.
Quite important in a crowded cello section, or you'd be getting stabbed in the arm by the player on your right's bow, and you'd be stabbing the player on your left on the up bow.
That's one way to move up in the section.
sounds like a good teacher!
of course, we never want our instruction to feel clinical and boring to the student. but, bow = articulation.
i'm stealing this analogy from the famous conducting teacher dr.peter boonshaft,
"I like blue cars."
imagine moving the emphasis from one word to the next?
I like blue cars
i LIKE blue cars
i like BLUE cars
i like blue CARS
the inflection changes the meaning. on a bowed instrument, this is everything. refined bowing technique allows for sophisticated performances, not to mention clear rich and beautiful tone.
To share a resource I just stumbled across, Drew Owen has some great videos for when you want to tackle vibrato and shifting. So helpful! Professional cellist, professor and magician!
Note: I am not related, but think his teaching is extremely accessible.
https://www.youtube.com/@cellodrew
Note: I am not related, but think his teaching is extremely accessible.
https://www.youtube.com/@cellodrew
i'll just add on to wait a little before learning vibrato. A clear, in-tune sound should be consistent for some time first.
Often a student who's learned it too early will have intonation problems. Even more often, they will have sort of a "one size fits all" sound that is rarely fitting of the repertoire or situation.
playing with a clear sound that is in tune consistently (up to at least 4th position) is the sign that someone is ready.
the trouble with this is that vibrato is a very rewarding sound, and on a cello it's physically easy to mimic. Takes lots of self control to wait before we add this flavor!
That would be Apocalyptica, of course…
Then, if Gothically inclined, there’s Rasputina…
Go beyond run of the mill material like that (let alone obvious stuff like certain Beatles’ tracks), and investigate the real(but under the radar) history of cello in rock…Very cool to see a few folks find this thread already.
It's an amazing instrument. I can't do much yet, but - I'm hooked.
I'm finding a group online - Facebook - to be a bit snobby for my tastes. Thus why I thought I'd stoke a more friendly dialog here.
For anyone who finds this thread, had some desire, and is deathly concerned about standard notation, this book has both standard and tab at the same time:
https://www.amazon.com/How-Play-Cello-Days-Beginners/dp/B0B92FYFJG
Ignore the 14 Days bit. It's there just to fit in with a bunch of other books in the same set.
Cross out the Days and write in - Years.
But seriously, it Is a solid starter book. You can learn standard notation if you choose, but in the meantime, there is tab there to move you along.
If this thread thrives, I will share here exercises I write out as I try to learn.
One thing I find - existing material doesn't invest a whole lot of energy in engaging new learners with fresh material. Thus, most books are gonna have - Twinkle Twinkle.
Will post Another One Bites The Dust and Owner Of A Lonely Heart exercises for learning first position.
They were the first band to perform at Woodstock(although the set was pretty wobbly as they sound like they were dosed), and had some tragic circumstances that derailed their career, but were unique in their time. I saw them open for Eric Burdon and the Animals, and years later met the singer, Nancy…
Then, way before ELO, there was this outfit…
Member Michael Kamen went on to orchestrate for Pink Floyd and Metallica (among many other acts), and another, Mark Snow, composed the X-Files theme.
As for ELO, and adding strings as regular instruments in a rock band, that was not Jeff Lynne’s idea but purloined from Roy Wood, leader of British band, The Move, which Lynne joined in the second half of their existence. Wood played cello on this…
The transition from The Move into ELO happened here…
…after which Lynne kicked wood out of the band.
Cello popped up in other places…
Martin McCarrick took this album to another level…
Plus his work with Siouxie and the Banshees and so many others…
Martin McCarrick - Wikipedia
Similarly, the resume’ of Caroline Lavelle…
https://youtu.be/7zqSGfcQewA?si=YcKJzF6WQQY3haMf
Caroline Lavelle - Wikipedia
Jeff Beck’s later band line-up featured cellist Vanessa Freebaim-Smith…
https://youtu.be/WVYzy5q90QY?si=uwt3-G63TwCYgBl2
Then, just a couple of weeks ago, I saw this woman, Tina Guo, perform with Ministry…
https://youtu.be/93bHWQla6rM?si=Ynx_Zf5Djac5ydxG
https://youtu.be/LxuA54IU9Rs?si=xOvzB0knnHs1ALjs
https://youtu.be/KQX6SqAGiPw?si=WI43nlxoYFr2MBRE
Some more rock cello heaviness for you…while technically not “metal”, it’s an influence; uncredited cellist matched with John Wetton’s P-Bass from hell, starting at 2:56:
Then earlier, with the exception of Ginger’s hi-hat, Jack carries the entire song on cello (and acoustic guitar)…
…and trades licks with Eric at 0:51 in this unlikely tune, their first single…
Then Jane Scarpantoni; in addition to sessions and logging time with the Psychedelic Furs, John Lurie’s Lounge Lizards, 10,000 Maniacs and so many others, here she goes off the hook further than John Cale’s original viola part, which was fairly demented in the first place…
So, I thought I'd share where I am with the cello journey. It's been about 7 weeks of study or so.
It's - really hard. For me. Pizz is not a problem, and intonation is coming along. Although that will be a rest-of-life pursuit. But the bowing is really, really, Really humbling me. I suck at it still.
I will persist, but I have to admit - I expected to be further along at this point.
But - it's worth the work. I'm really enjoying it - in spite of sucking.
It's - really hard.
For me. Pizz is not a problem, and intonation is coming along. Although that will be a rest-of-life pursuit. But the bowing is really, really, Really humbling me. I suck at it still.I will persist, but I have to admit - I expected to be further along at this point.
But - it's worth the work. I'm really enjoying it - in spite of sucking.
So... perhaps this includes me... I'm learning on a 5-string NS Design Omni Bass, tuned in 5ths, one octave below cello tuning (with a high E). I'm treating the thing as a "bass cello" which is what the instrument was originally named. I've been learning with Cello Discovery, a site that focuses on adults learning cello. In my case, this is a first real forray into learning any sort of musical instrument. Having a blast in both the bass and cello worlds.
And yes, arco is challenging. I'm still fighting squeaky harmonics!
And yes, arco is challenging. I'm still fighting squeaky harmonics!
That's awesome! I play the Omni Bass as well, and I have bought a fifths tuning set of strings, but I have not gotten around to making the jump to "octave cello" tuning yet! Would be curious to hear how you are progressing. What pieces are you playing?
Nice.
My progress is very slow. Really enjoying it, but proper bowing is kicking my butt.
I will persevere.
My progress is very slow. Really enjoying it, but proper bowing is kicking my butt.
I will persevere.
Anyone here part timing on the cello try any Aquila cello strings? Right now, I am using DAddario Pro-Artes - which have a synthetic core. I found them much more flexible and easier to play than two other sets with a metal core.
"Pieces"? Um, well... it is more like exercises at this point, however I did manage to play a "traditional bass" role in an old-time band for a little bit last week. On the bass cello side, I contributed to the Cello Discovery Virtual Cello Choir's "O Fortuna" from Orff's Carmina Burana a few months ago.
I'm with SBassman - going is slow!
I'm still (constantly) wrestling with going sharp in first position.
I'm very good at setting my hand in the right position on the neck, but as I play and my left elbow starts to drop, my hand tends to go with it and I go about a half tone sharp with my pinky.
Proper technique wants all four fingers down if playing a note with the pinky, and this does help with keeping intonation accurate. This works fine for holding a note, but if playing a passage it's not conducive for speed. I do see most cellists playing one finger/one note when playing faster passages.
I've been experimenting with cello position to my body, but haven't noticed an appreciable difference .
I almost have to keep my elbow at shoulder height to keep the pinky from drifting sharp.
I'm very good at setting my hand in the right position on the neck, but as I play and my left elbow starts to drop, my hand tends to go with it and I go about a half tone sharp with my pinky.
Proper technique wants all four fingers down if playing a note with the pinky, and this does help with keeping intonation accurate. This works fine for holding a note, but if playing a passage it's not conducive for speed. I do see most cellists playing one finger/one note when playing faster passages.
I've been experimenting with cello position to my body, but haven't noticed an appreciable difference .
I almost have to keep my elbow at shoulder height to keep the pinky from drifting sharp.