Thinking about getting into vinyl - Where to start

[socialleper]

If you can find NON-remastered CD's they should sound the same as vinyl minus the surface noise and possible distortion on the bass notes (which may or may not be an improvement). If you can find a bootleg copy of "Metallica - Death Magnetic" that was on the early GH3 game accidentally unmastered it'll blow your mind how much modern mastering ruins music . The only "magic" of early vinyl is that the mastering is way less murderous and the bass is rolled off (or compressed and/or clipped) to keep the grooves from being too wide. Modern vinyl somewhat overcomes the latter by computerized cutting lathes with look ahead that can vary the groove spacing to keep the low end.

One of the reasons I'm considering getting into vinyl is to get away from the "loudness" of newer recordings. It is physically impossible to crank everything up to 11, and sometimes cause distortion, in order to make the mix louder. From what I've heard there is also a subtle warmth to analog because of the lack of insane boosting when it comes to the lows.

 

[bassboysam]

Since you and I have many of the same tastes, and I trust you, let me ask you this: am I chasing snipes here? I'm sure that something like Jaco's solo CD would have a certain something extra on vinyl. But let's say I'm throwing on Electric Wizard, Opeth, Sleep, or Cathedral, will what I hear on Vinyl make a difference?
I am very much into nuance in music, but I'm also not into feeding a sense of something being better simply because of "vibe." Many in the doom\stoner world are married to vinyl (and cassettes for some damn fool reason) simply because it is retro. Much of the style is centered around the 1970s\Sabbath vibe. They play old looking guitars on old sounding amps so they can sound like bands that peaked before they were born. That's not me.
I bought my Brainwavz Pro-Alpha IEMs and Sennheiser headphones so I can hear a flat response, and so I can experience the whole soundscape of a high quality (but digital) recording. In your opinion, will a record of Blackwater Park, In the Garden of Earthly Delights, or Paranoid sound better than a CD, Dynamic Range Compression aside?

it depends unfortunately. on a really budget setup i doubt you'll hear a difference. but on a good system there is an inprovement in some recordings. if mastered properly and pressed well vinyl has a more 3d sound i find with more punch and sounds fuller. most sabbath vinyl pressings sound superior to the CDs in my opinion. the first time i heard sabbath on vinyl i finally "got it". Welcome to Sky Valley on vinyl is unlistenable. absolute garbage and does the album no justice. vinyl done right does have a unique sound. how often is vinyl done well? in metal almost never. if you don't listen to much outside of metal vinyl it isn't worth it in my opinion. you'd be better off upgrading your digital setup. speakers, DAC and amp and will likely cost less.

 

[socialleper]

it depends unfortunately. on a really budget setup i doubt you'll hear a difference. but on a good system there is an inprovement in some recordings. if mastered properly and pressed well vinyl has a more 3d sound i find with more punch and sounds fuller. most sabbath vinyl pressings sound superior to the CDs in my opinion. the first time i heard sabbath on vinyl i finally "got it". Welcome to Sky Valley on vinyl is unlistenable. absolute garbage and does the album no justice. vinyl done right does have a unique sound. how often is vinyl done well? in metal almost never. if you don't listen to much outside of metal vinyl it isn't worth it in my opinion. you'd be better off upgrading your digital setup. speakers, DAC and amp and will likely cost less.

Sky Valley was mastered different for CD?

 

[ShredderMaximus]

I just bet there's a similar site to TB for this.
Please don't go there.
It'll start small ... one turntable, a simple amp, a couple of ok speakers, some old LP's from a charity shop.

But you know how it's gonna end.
You'll never be happy, even with a sound system to rival Abbey Road, having sold your cars, boats, basses, wives, kids and dogs to finance it all.

My advice? Get yourself one of these.
Numark PT-01 Touring

Only 77euro ... I'm sure you can find something similar in your part of the world.

If you need volume, it'll run into your bass rig, and I can't believe that won't give an awesome sound.

Eww, no. Those suitcase turntables are for hipsters who are more into saying they are into vinyl than actually experiencing it. You are far better off just listening to your flaac tracks on your pc than getting one of those, and without an adjustable tonearm weight it'll just end up eating up your records anyway. Get an Audio Technica LP120 a cheap reciever and some speakers and your set with a very decent starter set up.

 

[bassboysam]

Sky Valley was mastered different for CD?

i actually think they used the cd master for vinyl which really doesn't work. sky valley is also almost 52 minutes long. cramming that on one lp was asking for trouble. 36 min is ideal for 1 lp. 40 you can get away with with some loss of dynamic range. it really should have been at least 3 sides.


edit: my bad it was 3 sides. so i think the main issue was the poor and/or lack of a propper vinyl master

 

[LeftyD]

2 turntables. Old and older.

 

[RoadRanger]

From what I've heard there is also a subtle warmth to analog because of the lack of insane boosting when it comes to the lows.

It's been proven that no-one can detect the mere difference between analog and digital - the differences are all in how it's mastered. I've actually chatted with a couple of real mastering engineers and they say it sux but they are generally paid for LOUD and good/OK not for dynamic and great. Yah, "real" tape adds a warmth but they have plug-ins for that now that nail it . Real tape also tends to limit "comping" and "quantizing" that suck the "live" out of recordings too.

 

[ShredderMaximus]

Also of note, you can also pick up some decent powered computer speakers and use those if you don't want to go the whole receiver route, which is what I did. Originally I picked up a Pro-Ject Debut Carbon DC turntable used on Ebay and a phono preamp for a decent price and just used some old pc speakers. A few months later I picked up some Audioengine A2+ powered speakers. A few months after that I picked up a Pioneer SW-8 MK2 subwoofer and now I have a pretty decent setup that sounds pretty damn good to my ears.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I'm not too keen on the idea of going with something used just for the reasons you mentioned. Since we are talking about analog here, I know every little component makes a difference. People tend to get wrapped up in nostalgia for things made decades ago, thinking that they were built better then. That is a fallacy with no facts behind it. Just look at the inconsistencies in "good" or "bad" instruments from before we had computer aided CAD and laser precision quality control.
I would probably go with something new or new-ish.

Understandable but it depends on how the gear was kept. I've picked up way too much nice gear in great condition over the years for peanuts. Unfortunately I don't much time to actually sit down and listen to all of the vinyl I still have.

 

[catcauphonic]

i actually think they used the cd master for vinyl which really doesn't work. sky valley is also almost 52 minutes long. cramming that on one lp was asking for trouble. 36 min is ideal for 1 lp. 40 you can get away with with some loss of dynamic range. it really should have been at least 3 sides.


edit: my bad it was 3 sides. so i think the main issue was the poor and/or lack of a propper vinyl master

+1 to all this, though my tonearm wright I've never concerned myself with since 75% of my recs are 1966-80's thrift store finds for $1.

I've also Frankensteined each of these components from thrifts for under $30, the exception being the TT (used for $179(?) at Hawthorne Stereo - A Pretty Nice Place in Seattle, & the speakers bought new years ago from Circuit City (remember them??)

Anyway, the cheap old receiver sounds great ($29.99), as does the Kenwood EQ ($7.99), the CD player is fine ($9.99) but hardly used, because despite the limitations of the speakers to get the full vinyl range,I still enjoy the whole record spinning experience almost exclusively when I'm at home. (Oh yea, the RCAjacks - 1/8th inch adapter laying on top from Radio shack to plug the occasional digi stuff into - $5.99.)

The cost of newer vinyl (& all that cool colored stuff available!) is what's gonna cost ya the most $$

Again, not the 'soundest' setup, but I do enjoy it (until its time to move )

 

[peledog]

It's not just about audio fidelity for me. It's a means for active listening. It feels like a product rather than nebulous files. It's tactile. With a decent system, the 'warmth' comes through - there is no over-sampling or bit rates, so there are no 'gaps' in the sound waves.

 

[viribus]

I wanted to like this on vinyl but I find it unlistenable. Shrill and harsh. Evidence that vinyl can't "fix" everything.

 

[Oddly]

The only thing I miss about vinyl is the LP covers, with lyrics printed on the sleeves and cool(sometimes) artwork.

 

[repoman]

The only thing I miss about vinyl is the LP covers, with lyrics printed on the sleeves and cool(sometimes) artwork.

This is the main reason I still play albums. Love album cover art. Especially this one!
I use to find one of these EVERY time I went out to search the Goodwill/thrift shops, oddly, not so much any more. lol

 

[socialleper]

This is the main reason I still play albums. Love album cover art. Especially this one!
I use to find one of these EVERY time I went out to search the Goodwill/thrift shops, oddly, not so much any more. lol
View attachment 2750054

@Oddly The larger gatefold covers and larger liner notes was a nice feature of records. A logo and a cover really had to sell an album. The shocking part is how terrible some of them were and yet they still sold.

The cost of newer vinyl (& all that cool colored stuff available!) is what's gonna cost ya the most $$

That is another one of my concerns. New vinyl runs in the $20-$30 range. Considering my particular and decidedly modern taste in music, I doubt The Goodwill is going to have a lot of things that interest me. I would also be worried about buying trashed LPs that have been shredded from improper playing. If I'm going to dump $30 on an original pressing of Black Sabbath's Paranoid, there isn't a way to know if it is good until I have it.

It's not just about audio fidelity for me. It's a means for active listening. It feels like a product rather than nebulous files. It's tactile. With a decent system, the 'warmth' comes through - there is no over-sampling or bit rates, so there are no 'gaps' in the sound waves.

I prefer the act of physically buying a physical thing as well. However, most of what you just described is technically fidelity. While a 16bit CD is very good, it isn't a wave. MP3s are even worse as you are actually only hearing 75% of the music; the other 25% is literally deleted to compress the file. I rip my CDs to FLAC, which is lossless and near .WAV quality with a smaller footprint.
The warmth you hear is because it is physically impossible to push the highs and lows on a record like you can digitally on a CD. The pits and grooves just won't do it. Plus, many older recordings were mid focused by today's recording standards anyway.

 

[hbarcat]

If it's sound quality you want then you are best off buying new digital masters of your favorite recordings at 24 bit, 48k or better and then storing and playing the files on a dedicated music player. You can get a very good quality player for $100 and either plug it into a receiver amp with speakers or just use your phones. I actually use the same Sennheiser HD280 Pro's you have.

I'm still a vinyl fan today and have about 600 LP's and a nice table with standalone pre and hi-fi system. But the reality is that while vinyl is going to sound modestly better than CD's and much better than MP3's, it can't possibly compete with any 24 bit, 48kHz file sampled from a quality master. The only reason to play vinyl is the nostalgia factor. This is not a bad reason, and if it gives you enjoyment, then that's fine. But don't expect vinyl to sound better. You will go crazy (and maybe broke) trying to get there.

 

[socialleper]

If it's sound quality you want then you are best off buying new digital masters of your favorite recordings at 24 bit, 48k or better and then storing and playing the files on a dedicated music player. You can get a very good quality player for $100 and either plug it into a receiver amp with speakers or just use your phones. I actually use the same Sennheiser HD280 Pro's you have.

I'm still a vinyl fan today and have about 600 LP's and a nice table with standalone pre and hi-fi system. But the reality is that while vinyl is going to sound modestly better than CD's and much better than MP3's, it can't possibly compete with any 24 bit, 48kHz file sampled from a quality master. The only reason to play vinyl is the nostalgia factor. This is not a bad reason, and if it gives you enjoyment, then that's fine. But don't expect vinyl to sound better. You will go crazy (and maybe broke) trying to get there.

Where does one find 24-bit 48k material?

 

[hbarcat]

Where does one find 24-bit 48k material?

That's the hard part.

I actually make my own from vinyl. I record my favorite albums in 24 bit, 48 kHz from my turntable to the phono pre to the balanced inputs on my dedicated recording computer with a professional audio interface and then I use software to remaster the files. I either keep them as waves or convert to FLAC format and then store them on 32 GB Micro SD cards. I play them back using a FIIO X5.
FiiO X5-II Replacement for FiiO X5 | B&H Photo Video


There may be commercial sources of modern recordings available for sale in hi-fi format.

EDIT: Here we are.
Download Format Help | HDtracks - The World's Greatest-Sounding Music Downloads

Our 176.4kHz/24-bit FLAC files are virtual clones of the original master recordings, delivering the experience of sitting in the control room of the recording studio.

For example, with our exclusive Rolling Stones release, ABKCO Records undertook a long and painstaking re-mastering process employing state-of-the-art master tape to digital file transfers using the best in Analog to Digital converters to provide HDtracks with the highest quality music files possible. These albums are unprecedented in quality and are available as FLAC files from HDTracks.com.

For example, you can buy a remastered version of the Fleetwood Mac album "Rumours" as a 24 bit, 96 kHz collection of song files for $19.98.
Rumours - Top Best Sellers | HDtracks - The World's Greatest-Sounding Music Downloads

 

[RoadRanger]

Oy vey - don't forget the $3000 power cords too...

 

[hbarcat]

Oy vey - don't forget the $3000 power cords too...

I don't go for that stuff.

My turntable bought used - $200
phono pre - $80
recording computer (win xp) - $300 used
recording interface - $150
headphones - $100
Fiio x5 music player $260

You don't have to spend a lot of money to get hi-fi sound. It's the speakers that get expensive quick. But you don't have to go nuts there, either. I rent a house with 2 other tenants and I can't play music very loud - really not at all. So headphones are the rule.