Tips on Transposing on the Fly?

#42
I can't think of a good reason for doing this on the fly. I have had it done to me on stage and suddenly realized how fistfights could break out on stage. Idiot guitar player called it out and then went into the intro. Uncool.


Singer's range changed suddenly? Cool experienced musician's magical ear heard it better in his head in a different key and couldn't wait?
 
#45
organworthyplayer337 said:
So The band I'm playing are all extremely experienced musicians. Last night during rehearsal, last minute, they switched a song from F to E. I managed (fairly) but I was thrown off because I've practiced the song in F for a while.

Are there any tips for transposing in the fly?



*Disclaimer* I'm young, I jus wanna learn :rolleyes:
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As far as the Western Music System...................

What is a scale? A scale is a sequence of musical tones arranged from the lowest tone to the highest, a pattern. Each position in the sequence can be called a scale degree. Transposing from one scale to the next involve correlating scale degrees. If two scales have different number of scale degrees then transposing can be arbitrary or maybe not even possible.

The Major scale tone pattern is Root, Whole Tone, Whole Tone, Half Tone, Whole Tone, Whole Tone, Whole Tone, Half Tone. This is the definition of every single major scale. It has 7 degrees because it has 7 tones. The semi-tone pattern of any Major scale is 0, 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 12. Semi-tone pattern follows from the tone pattern because a Half Tone is a semi-tone and a Whole tone is 2 semi-tones. The interval pattern of any Major scale is Unison, M2, M3, P4, P5, M6, M7, Octave which also corresponds to semi-tones and tones. The triad chord pattern of any Major scale is I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, vii(dim). As far as I know, the chord pattern does not derive from the scale tone, semi-tone, or interval patterns. It has to be found by trial and error while conforming to the scale pattern.

Let's compare Major (also called Ionian) to Lydian. Lydian is the 4th mode of Major. It's the Major pattern shifted 3 positions to the left so it has 7 scale degrees too. The Lydian tone pattern is Root, WT, WT, WT, HT, WT, WT, HT. The chords are also shifted. So we go from I, ii, iii, IV, V vi, vii(dim) in Major to to I, II, iii, iv(dim), V, vi, vii in Lydian. The semi-tone pattern is shifted from 0, 2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 12 in Major to 0, 2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 11, 12 in Lydian. The interval pattern is shifted from Unison, M2, M3, P4, P5, M6, M7, Octave in Major to Unison, M2, M3, A4/D5, P5, M6, M7, Octave in Lydian. They both have 7 scale degrees so transposing is a matter of matching scale degrees.

The note pattern of a scale is derived from the tone and semi-tone pattern.

The note pattern of A Major is A, B, Db, D, E, Gb, Ab, A. The note pattern in A Lydian is A, B, Db, Eb, E, Gb, Ab, A. The chords of A major are Amaj, Bmin, Dbmin, Dmaj, Emaj, Gbmin, Abdim. The chords of A Lydian are Amaj, Bmaj, Dbmin, Ebdim, Emaj, Gbmin, Abmin.

Let's say your song is in A major and has a I, IV, V chord progression. The chords would be Amaj, DMaj, Emaj.

To transposed from A Major to C Major you would use the same Major pattern but shift the song 3 semi-tones up or 9 semi-tones down because that is the number of semi-tones from A to C. Your chord progression in C would be Cmaj, Fmaj, Gmaj. The melody would change in the same way, 3 semi-tones up or 9 semi-tones down keeping the same pattern. On any guitar type instrument, every fret is one semi-tone. So transposing within the same scale is easy. You just pitch shift the entire song up or down a bunch of frets.

Transposed to A Lydian the chord progression would be Amaj, Ebdim, Emaj. Since the patterns are different you can't simply pitch shift the notes or tones. You have to match the scale degrees. The 4th scale degree in a Major scale is 5 semi-tones higher than the Root. The 4th scale degree in Lydian is 6 semi-tones higher than the root. So we transpose D in A major to Eb in A Lydian, E in A# Lydian, F in B Lydian, F# in C Lydian, G in C# Lydian, etc.

What about chromatics? Since chromatics do not correspond to scale degrees, they have to correspond to the Root. So let's say your song in A major has an A#. That's one semi-tone away from the Root. So in C major that would be C#. In A Lydian that would be A#. Etc.

What if you transpose an A Major song with a chromatic A# and a B to A Locrian? The tone pattern for Locrian is Root, Half Tone, Whole Tone, Whole Tone, Half tone, Whole Tone, Whole Tone, Whole Tone. B is the second scale degree of A Major so it would transpose to Bb in A Locrian. But what do you do with the A# since transposing it relative to the Root in his case makes it overlap with the second scale degree? I see no other choice but to transpose it relative to the Root. This would create a problem if trying to transpose back to Major from Locrian because it's not possible to tell which Bb were chromatic in A major and which ones were transposed from A Major. But, oh well, poopie happens.

What about transposing to the Acoustic scale? You would have to work out which chords are in the Acoustic Scale. I did that a while ago. I started a note book with the intention of finding all the chords in all these scales: List of musical scales and modes - Wikipedia . Many of the scale degrees in the Acoustic Scale have more than one chord. So you would have to make some choices. I would transpose each chord one note at a time the same way I'd transpose the melody.

So, transposing on the fly comes down to how well you know the scales, how fast the song is, and how few chromatics the song has.

Reddit has a good Music Theory section. Also, wikipedia has the basics scattered across many pages.
 
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#46
Sorry, I misread this. I thought it was transposing *while* a fly!

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#47
First off, Happy New Year all. I played a show last night which had all the elements of this thread, and some i had not even considered could be an issue, so i wonder if other players have ever experienced what i am about to write about?

i would have to say it was a challenging show because as well as lots of songs transposed, we were also a semitone (half step) down.
The transposition was not a problem, but being a semitone down was. I went a semitone down because every song would be a semitone down and the sheets were notated with this in mind, so i was never going to transpose every song i played when i could just read it.

My problem was, say for example, we done, Summer Of 69, by Bryan Adams played in B (actually key is D), other included, Queens, Don't Stop Me Know from F down to C, Robbie Williams, Angels from E down to D, and Guns And Roses, Sweet Child Of Mine, D to B to but mention a few, and of course these are a semitone lower in pitch that stated (start to see my problem and the reason i decided tuning down would be easier for all concerned?)
But because we are tuned down a semitone it is actually Bb, so a full two tone drop in reality, but the other players kept referring to is as B, but my ears heard Bb.

Now what i found out, to my embarrassment at times, was that i had to really concentrate on playing, to the extent i was now thinking and not playing.
i was put back into learning mode, and you cannot learn and play at the same time with good results as they use different parts of the brain.
Biggest problem as i said was the semitone down, my ears would hear, in the case of the Bryan Adams song, Bb..but i was being asked to fret a B.
So my hand would go to fret B, i hear Bb and shift my hand thinking i have fretted wrong, then realise it is right because the new note is out....return back to the previous position...all this was split second movement, so started to become nerve racking after a while as i was not settling in as quick as i would like in the first set.

But after a break sets two, and then a break before set three helped get used to the idea if being a semitone down, the actual act of using it was starting to become more natural.

So it occurs to me that if you tune a semitone down you have to learn to call the note as it is in its new tuning, so a C fretted should be called a C, even though in reality it is pitched as B. So in working with intervals make sure your bass is tuned to standard so the correct note names are learned and you can related that pitch to your fingerboard correctly. Then is you do drop tune learn to associate the new tuning to the fingerboard, not the real pitch of the notes.

OK my problems may be because i have a good trained ear, a developed skill of pitch, so re-tuning the bass might not have been the best option for me, but is was the most practical for the situation, but that does not mean its bad to develop interval skills, i was just not prepared for was what i would call the "relative pitching" skills required to just use the new tuning and accept everything as presented rather than what i know.

As i said i would be interested if other player with a trained ear of some sorts ever had the same/similar experience?
I learned to just transpose, or play what was written, no re-tuning for me, but i think this may be a modern phenomena that more altered tunings are used as quite a few Blues Acts tune a semi-tone down, purely for tone i believe?

So for me 2017 will be to practice in altered tunings and see if i can get my brain to accept fretting notes in new/different places on the fingerboard, as well as learning to call a pitch the relative name.
So if i am tuned a semitone down, learning to use those fretted names not the actual pitch i hear, and learn to relate actual pitch to relative pitch....after 45 years plus of playing who says there is nothing new to learn....i hope an old dog can learn some new tricks.
 
#48
If I'm given songs I don't know cold I use my version of a number system and write a chart that I can follow. Once I've established the key I assigned a number to each note based on a major scale. So I have 1, 2b, 2, 3b, 3, 4, 5b, 5 and so on. I also use a shorthand for timing where I can note rests, anticipation and stacatto. I also use lyrics for timing.

When that's done transposing is a piece of cake. See the word or just the number, play the interval. I also use it as a reminder on a set list like simply writing Bridge 6b meaning that's where it starts. One string down from root, half step up. Don't even have to think about what note it is.
 
#49
Ulf Buck said:
I can't think of a good reason for doing this on the fly. I have had it done to me on stage and suddenly realized how fistfights could break out on stage. Idiot guitar player called it out and then went into the intro. Uncool.


Singer's range changed suddenly? Cool experienced musician's magical ear heard it better in his head in a different key and couldn't wait?
Click to expand...

A good reason is that you're playing live music so making it work is usually preferred vs. a train wreck. IMO really knowing a song shouldn't be about knowing a lick or the notes. It's about understanding the actual structure. Get that in your head and you're golden.

I play with a lot of vocalists. It helps to be able to play anywhere they might want to sing.
 
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#50
Fergie Fulton said:
i would have to say it was a challenging show because as well as lots of songs transposed, we were also a semitone (half step) down.
The transposition was not a problem, but being a semitone down was. I went a semitone down because every song would be a semitone down and the sheets were notated with this in mind, so i was never going to transpose every song i played when i could just read it.
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If the band tunes down a semitone, I tune also tune down. No need to make it harder than it is ;)

Two reasons for this. First, like you found, the band will call out the keys they are playing, not the key they are tuned to.

The second reason is that you the chord shapes will be for the played key, not the tuned key. It sounds like this was not an issue for you since you knew, or could read, the songs, just not in the right keys.
 
#52
seanm said:
If the band tunes down a semitone, I tune also tune down. No need to make it harder than it is ;)

Two reasons for this. First, like you found, the band will call out the keys they are playing, not the key they are tuned to.

The second reason is that you the chord shapes will be for the played key, not the tuned key. It sounds like this was not an issue for you since you knew, or could read, the songs, just not in the right keys.
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For sure calling out keys that were all a semitone out was very.....well dis-orientating may not be the right word, but it was a curve ball situation that after it was all over i felt mentally exhausted. And yes i have found out from a few others that indeed it is "tune down and call the chords" as they are on the fretboard...not as pitch.
 
#53
Fergie Fulton said:
And yes i have found out from a few others that indeed it is "tune down and call the chords" as they are on the fretboard...not as pitch.
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Please explain. I don't understand what you mean. In my world, I don't care what someone might call a note/chord ... if it's an E then it's an E, no matter how the guitar or bass refer to it. When playing keys I need to play the actual note (not "it's in A, capo'd two played as a G"). When playing in my acoustic guitar duo we often capo at least one guitar, and although we're both playing G, one of us is capo'd five and playing in D shapes ... but it's still a G chord. So, in short, tell me the note or chord and the key, let me worry about where and how I'll play it.
 
#54
No excuse for not knowing your instrument. I recently joined a cover band, and learned 15 songs the second week. They called the first song of the night in a different key, and another up a half step (oops, didn't tell me they moved it up a step for the vocalist). I didn't have all the runs perfect, but I was able to play it pretty well first take.
Now, if theycalled "Spirit of Radio" in A#, that's another story. It takes practice.
 
#55
RustyAxe said:
Please explain. I don't understand what you mean. In my world, I don't care what someone might call a note/chord ... if it's an E then it's an E, no matter how the guitar or bass refer to it. When playing keys I need to play the actual note (not "it's in A, capo'd two played as a G"). When playing in my acoustic guitar duo we often capo at least one guitar, and although we're both playing G, one of us is capo'd five and playing in D shapes ... but it's still a G chord. So, in short, tell me the note or chord and the key, let me worry about where and how I'll play it.
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Many guitar players know chords as shapes. So if they are playing a G shape, the song is in G. If they then capo up two, they are still playing a G shape so it is G. So they call out what they are playing... not the actual pitch chord. You get used to it.

The other gotcha is songs that start on something other than the root, for example the 5th. A lot of people consider the first chord the "key".
 
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#56
RustyAxe said:
Please explain. I don't understand what you mean. In my world, I don't care what someone might call a note/chord ... if it's an E then it's an E, no matter how the guitar or bass refer to it. When playing keys I need to play the actual note (not "it's in A, capo'd two played as a G"). When playing in my acoustic guitar duo we often capo at least one guitar, and although we're both playing G, one of us is capo'd five and playing in D shapes ... but it's still a G chord. So, in short, tell me the note or chord and the key, let me worry about where and how I'll play it.
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Simply put, in standard tuning when questioning song arrangements before hand there were two conversation, one for me and one of the other members. So one song was, Alright Now by Free. Now i cannot play that song in standard when everyone is a semitone down....well let say i cannot do it justice....even if i used a fiver, the song was written to use open strings.....as were a lot of the rock songs in the set.

As my arrangement sheets were already written for a semitone down then i would have to transpose up what i read.
So in either situation i will have to work mental harder, by playing standard are transpose down, while reading sheets that need to be transposed up??????or play semitone down and get on with it.
So rather than play transposed songs and have to transpose up from my sheets to my tuning, i took my tuning down.
So now when the band talk is of E, i am now with the room in E...rather than thinking their E is my F or my F is E.
But the reality for me was i was not prepared, or experienced for the actual job of doing it live, although i was a great night, and i slipped up only once that made even me wince, but i did feel more comfortable in the last two sets as i got used to it....though still mentally exhausting fighting my hand to ear co-ordination, especially when i had to free play some sections that had a note like "Eb7 vamp", in the Jacksons song Blame It On The Boogie.
 
#57
seanm said:
Many guitar players know chords as shapes. So if they are playing a G shape, the song is in G. If they then capo up two, they are still playing a G shape so it is G. So they call out what they are playing... not the actual pitch chord. You get used to it.

The other gotcha is songs that start on something other than the root, for example the 5th. A lot of people consider the first chord the "key".
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The difference between a "player" and a "musician". They are playing A. Calling it G only communicates to another guitar player, also capo'd two ... and no one else.
 
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#59
The detuned but calling it the shape thing ticks me off. I see it as pure laziness. I understand why it happens but don't like it.
Fortunately I don't run into it often.
Today at my church gig a tuned was started which we didn't have charts for. We have 3 keyboards so I was looking at left hands and realized one of them must have had the transpose button on as they were playing a half step apart. Talk about confusing.
 
#60
seanm said:
Many guitar players know chords as shapes. So if they are playing a G shape, the song is in G. If they then capo up two, they are still playing a G shape so it is G. So they call out what they are playing... not the actual pitch chord. You get used to it.
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I understand you, and believe you understand me. And I agree ... I am used to it, but don't like it. I'm primarily an acoustic guitar player/singer ... but over the years have gotten lots of work on bass (and love it!). But as I said in the previous post, calling the chord shape (e.g. "G") when capo'd three simply doesn't communicate to anyone else but another player capo'd three. The un-capo'd dobro player isn't playing a G, he's playing Bb, as is everyone, in reality.

Call me a "snob" but I really can't be in a band for long with people who are not musicians (or at least have a modicum of musical knowledge).
 
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