Double Bass Trace Elliot ELF 1x10 impressions

[nogbert]

Hey all,

I just had the opportunity to A/B two cabinets, one of which was the ELF 1x10 (the other was the Upshot). I noticed there is practically no info out there about it pertaining to the DB so i thought i would give my quick takeaway:

the cabinet is extremely light at 16 lbs. I was unable to notice the difference in weight compared to the Upshot when I lifted them at the same time, one in each hand. This is a serious contender for portability!

compared to the Upshot it was noticeably louder with my amp (Clarus 2r series iii) when set identically.

Tone was good, slightly warm/full sounding, but overall a good reproduction of my bass unamplified. i am 100% confident that any added character imparted by the cabinet could be EQ'd out, but i didn't put a ton of effort into messing with this.

In the end i went with the upshot; the small footprint and novelty factor pushed me over the edge. i would not hesitate to buy an ELF in the future if i see a good deal on one.

Now I just need to figure out where to put my amp when using the upshot.

 

[Mikegb]

Thanks so much for this. I have a really good 2x10 and a 1x12 that weighs almost as much. I was wondering about the viability of that elf 1x10

 

[Michael135]

I have the elf with the 110. For practice and certainly for gigging, it’s woefully inadequate if you are competing with drums and loud guitars. I have no idea how much of an improvement adding another 110 cab will bring. The math suggests a lot, but I’m unwilling to shell out another $300 or so for the cab without knowing for sure. So my question is this: anyone using the Elf with 2 110s and if so, thoughts?

 

[nogbert]

I have the elf with the 110. For practice and certainly for gigging, it’s woefully inadequate if you are competing with drums and loud guitars. I have no idea how much of an improvement adding another 110 cab will bring. The math suggests a lot, but I’m unwilling to shell out another $300 or so for the cab without knowing for sure. So my question is this: anyone using the Elf with 2 110s and if so, thoughts?

I'm curious to know what gigging situations you're in. The cab to me was noticeably louder than the AI upshot which i use in a jazz quintet with drum without any issue. maybe the ELF head is woefully inadequate?

 

[Mushroo]

I have the elf with the 110. For practice and certainly for gigging, it’s woefully inadequate if you are competing with drums and loud guitars. I have no idea how much of an improvement adding another 110 cab will bring. The math suggests a lot, but I’m unwilling to shell out another $300 or so for the cab without knowing for sure. So my question is this: anyone using the Elf with 2 110s and if so, thoughts?

The general theoretical rule of thumb is to expect +3db from the coupling effects of the second cab, and possibly another +3db for the increased wattage due to the 4ohm load.

I do not know how that theory translates in practice to the ELF lineup. I personally have my doubts it could handle "competing with drums and loud guitars."

 

[Zbysek]

maybe the ELF head is woefully inadequate?

My ELF has been adequate for number of gigs... I use different cabs though...

 

[nogbert]

good to know! i've heard it has a built in compressor; if that werent the case i'd think more people would be using it since its so damn small!

to my ears though the 1x10 cab had plenty of oomph.... it wouldn't be great for loud phychobilly or rockabilly but for practically any jazz combo gig I would expect it to work very well. still wondering what kind of music Michael135 was playing

 

[Michael135]

I bought the other 110 cabinet. The addition boosts volume quite a lot over the single cab. In a small venue, it does the job. My band plays mostly 80s - 2K covers (Bowie, Clash, Talking Heads and originals). In larger venues I’m pushing it too hard. The speakers are efficient but 200W won’t cut the mustard. That said, the product delivers more than what’s expected. Just don’t expect a miracle.

 

[njfrese]

I just got one last week. First is impression is very good. I have an Epifani 2x10 that I also love, but wanted something smaller and lighter because I am old and lazy. I put them side by side with my Little Mark II head and went back and forth. The 1x10 really does hold up well next to the Epifani. Not a ton of difference to my admittedly untrained ear, though of course the Epifani is at least marginally superior. Low end is surprisingly good for something this small (and it is REALLY small and REALLY light). I then linked the two of them together, running from my head to the Epifani and out of the Epifani to the Elf. With the Little Mark now pushing 500w instead of 250w (4 ohm vs 8 ohm), I got PLENTY of punch. I would highly recommend this little sucker, and I intend to try it at an upcoming gig we have at a 325-seat theater. I'll send a line out of the head to FOH and use the Elf as a stage monitor. The drummer will probably have to grab some bass in his monitor, but we'll see how it plays out.

 

[nogbert]

I bought the other 110 cabinet. The addition boosts volume quite a lot over the single cab. In a small venue, it does the job. My band plays mostly 80s - 2K covers (Bowie, Clash, Talking Heads and originals). In larger venues I’m pushing it too hard. The speakers are efficient but 200W won’t cut the mustard. That said, the product delivers more than what’s expected. Just don’t expect a miracle.

Ah now things make sense.... I posted my impressions in the double bass section of the forum, i dont know if you noticed that or not. So yes i agree with you; i would suspect that for rock bands playing with bass guitar the single 10" speaker would probably not cut it. all of my impressions are related to its use for double bass and music that uses that instrument extensively i.e. not rock.

 

[Michael135]

I’m using the stack (2x10) for gigs with a side project I’ve started that plays bossa nova classics. We have a singer, keyboardist and a very quiet percussionist playing lounges and restaurants. The TE is wonderful in this setting. Just perfect.

 

[Carlos Tiberio]

Using 1x10 with Tone Hammer 700. No regrets!

 

[Wasnex]

The general theoretical rule of thumb is to expect +3db from the coupling effects of the second cab, and possibly another +3db for the increased wattage due to the 4ohm load.

I do not know how that theory translates in practice to the ELF lineup. I personally have my doubts it could handle "competing with drums and loud guitars."

That's sort of the way it works. You actually get +6db in mutual coupling from whatever SPL the individual cabs produce. If your amp doubles power when you add a second matching speaker you get the full +6dB. Unfortunately most amps do not double their power when you add a second speaker, and the little of ELF is not an exception to the rule as it makes 200W at 4 ohms and 130W at 8 ohm.

Here's how it works out:
A single 8 ohm speaker will receive the full 130W. If you add a matching cab the total power goes up to 200W, but this is split two ways, so each cab only sees 100W. The dB difference between 130 and 100 watt is 1.14dB per this online calculator Watts to dBm conversion calculator So the two cabs start off playing 1.14dB quieter than the single cab. Then add +6dB for the mutual coupling and you get +4.86dB...let's call it +5dB.

The mutual coupling only works in the low end were the drivers are within about 1/4 wavelength of each other.

I can't find the sensitivity spec of the ELF 1x10, but here's another way to look at it. The Max SPL of one cab would be the 1W sensitivity rating + 21.14dB. The Max SPL of two cabs would be the 1W sensitivity rating + 20dB + 6dB

 

[Ric Vice]

Regardless of the benefits of two identical small cabinets, which I realize many folks enjoy, I’ve found there are draw backs to using a dual three way (or even two way cab) cabinets, with a tweeter, for Double Bass, using piezo pickups, if you stack them or place them side by side. Multiple tweeters, even ones with attenuators, are prone to feeding back when you turn up. Having experienced this issue with dual pairs of
EA-VL108’s, Flite Sound, and SWR Baby Blue 2x8’s I just think it’s wiser to have a slightly bigger cabinet. Just my take.

 

[statsc]

That's sort of the way it works. You actually get +6db in mutual coupling from whatever SPL the individual cabs produce. If your amp doubles power when you add a second matching speaker you get the full +6dB. Unfortunately most amps do not double their power when you add a second speaker, and the little of ELF is not an exception to the rule as it makes 200W at 4 ohms and 130W at 8 ohm.

Here's how it works out:
A single 8 ohm speaker will receive the full 130W. If you add a matching cab the total power goes up to 200W, but this is split two ways, so each cab only sees 100W. The dB difference between 130 and 100 watt is 1.14dB per this online calculator Watts to dBm conversion calculator So the two cabs start off playing 1.14dB quieter than the single cab. Then add +6dB for the mutual coupling and you get +4.86dB...let's call it +5dB.

The mutual coupling only works in the low end were the drivers are within about 1/4 wavelength of each other.

I can't find the sensitivity spec of the ELF 1x10, but here's another way to look at it. The Max SPL of one cab would be the 1W sensitivity rating + 21.14dB. The Max SPL of two cabs would be the 1W sensitivity rating + 20dB + 6dB

Interesting! So if you didn’t want the low end coupling to occur (i.e., less low end) how far apart ideally would you need to space the two speakers?

 

[Wasnex]

Interesting! So if you didn’t want the low end coupling to occur (i.e., less low end) how far apart ideally would you need to space the two speakers?

The answer is frequency dependent because wavelength increase as frequency decreases. When spacing is 1/4 wavelength or less, you get near perfect acoustic coupling. But as spacing approaches 1/2 wavelength you get cancellation/

So, IMHO, You wouldn't want to use such a strategy because it sets up destructive interference patterns called comb filtering.

See the the attached documents.

 

[Wasnex]

Regardless of the benefits of two identical small cabinets, which I realize many folks enjoy, I’ve found there are draw backs to using a dual three way (or even two way cab) cabinets, with a tweeter, for Double Bass, using piezo pickups, if you stack them or place them side by side. Multiple tweeters, even ones with attenuators, are prone to feeding back when you turn up. Having experienced this issue with dual pairs of
EA-VL108’s, Flite Sound, and SWR Baby Blue 2x8’s I just think it’s wiser to have a slightly bigger cabinet. Just my take.

This is one of the reasons I like setting my cabs about waist high. I used to run a pair of JBL 4628s behind me. They sounded great and I never had any feedback problems. They were quite heavy though. Probably best bowed string bass sound I ever got.

 

[Ric Vice]

Glad it worked for you, unfortunately I did set them side by side waist high and there were still issues with low end feedback and high end squeal. So, I just abandoned the concept. I could see where that configuration would perhaps work better with JBL 4628 studio monitors or current powered P.A. speakers. I prefer to use a single powered bass speaker with the size enough to cover a specific space. Incidentally, if you spread the speakers apart you can run into phase issues or delay between the two cabinets. One caveat here, the biggest cabinet I own is a powered MAS 4x5.5. It has a small footprint and weighs @ 30 lbs. The cabinet I use the most often is a powered MAS 1/8 at around 23 lbs.

 

[Ric Vice]

Waist high did not dramatically reduce feedback with either the EA VL’s or SWR Baby Blue’s , I had the EA’s on little elevator stands so they were give or take a few inches waist high.

 

[Wasnex]

Waist high did not dramatically reduce feedback with either the EA VL’s or SWR Baby Blue’s , I had the EA’s on little elevator stands so they were give or take a few inches waist high.

Totally the opposite of my experience. But I rarely experience high frequency or very low frequency feedback. The basses I played usually had feedback in the low mids to mids.

One thing to point out is everything must be considered as a system: bass, pickup, setup, amp, speaker, how the controls are set, etc. Sometimes problems arise because two components in the system don't get along so well, or because a component is not well suited for what we are asking it to do.

Also, although I found elevating the speaker greatly improved the sound, it was not a panacea. EQ still was greatly beneficial in achieving a natural sound, especially if high SPL was required.

Also I get the impression that you simply do not like the sound and experience with the speaker elevated. So part of this is a difference in our preferred way of hearing. Vive la difference .