Vocal pitch issues

[jimfist]

Anyone else have this problem?: as I'm a bassist who doesn't use IEM in performances, I predominantly hear my amplified bass loudest in my part of the stage. We are an old-school loud rock band.

I find that as the night goes on, as things get louder and more chaotic on stage, subs pumping, and add a couple beers, I have difficulty finding reference pitch for singing. To my horror, I've found myself terribly off key until I can get a clear reference from the nearest guitarist. Really eye-opening stuff.

Otherwise, my vocal pitch isn't ever a problem at quiet/moderate volumes. It's purely a matter of being sonically pitch-disorented at extended loud volumes. Anyone else experience this? FWIW, I do have tinnitus and hearing loss (no surprise there), and have 40+ yrs of gigging under my belt.

 

[Jett Litt]

I always suggest one of these Galaxy Audio solutions on a small near field stand for this.

Compact Monitors | Galaxy Audio Hot Spot PA Speakers

HS7 Hot Spot The Original Monitor For Live Stage Near-Field Vocal Monitoring - Galaxy Audio

Get a good vocal mix sent to one of these speakers and then use the built in volume control as the night goes on.

 

[jimfist]

I always suggest one of these Galaxy Audio solutions on a small near field stand for this.

Compact Monitors | Galaxy Audio Hot Spot PA Speakers

HS7 Hot Spot The Original Monitor For Live Stage Near-Field Vocal Monitoring - Galaxy Audio

View attachment 5404779

Get a good vocal mix sent to one of these speakers and then use the built in volume control as the night goes on.

Thanks. I actually own that system. Our stage wedges are excellent, but the problem isn't my ability to hear my vocals or the others, but my inability to locate a reference pitch due to the extended loudness of it all.
I'm guessing that a full band mix IEM would help sort this situation out.

 

[Jett Litt]

Thanks. I actually own that system. Our stage wedges are excellent, but the problem isn't my ability to hear my vocals or the others, but my inability to locate a reference pitch due to the extended loudness of it all.
I'm guessing that a full band mix IEM would help sort this situation out.

IEM would be the first suggestion, although you seemed partially adverse to it in the initial post.
They will also have the benefit of protecting your hearing.

I'd also suggest getting a personal IEM mixer for yourself once gong all in.

 

[jimfist]

IEM would be the first suggestion, although you seemed partially adverse to it in the initial post.
They will also have the benefit of protecting your hearing.

I'd also suggest getting a personal IEM mixer for yourself once gong all in.

No, not against IEM, but just stating that I didn't use in-ears. Our drummer has been on IEM for a while and loves it. Looks like I'll need to turn over some gear to fund this. Thanks for the info.

 

[ga_edwards]

Decent earplugs will help you hear your own voice immensely.

 

[jimfist]

Decent earplugs will help you hear your own voice immensely.

Yes, I've tried that. Thank you.

The problem isn't hearing my own voice, but in my ability to discern a proper reference pitch based on what I'm hearing on stage, most specifically when I'm singing solo (so no other vocalists to reference). I don't have perfect pitch, unfortunately. When I try to reference my own bass notes, the amount of ambient reverberation and low-end in the room smears my perception to the point where I THINK I'm hearing (in my mind's ear) the right pitch when in fact I'm off (always flat) by up to a whole step. It's bizarre, and only a few years ago did it become an issue. Aging, and deteriorating hearing playing a part, my guess.

I'll have to try an IEM system with predominant other instruments (guitars) in the mix (somewhat at the expense of hearing my own bass) for me to have solid pitch bearing. I hope it works. I'm worried that a big part of the problem is simply ear fatigue causing my sense of relative pitch to go south, since it only happens later in performances where there is significant volume. It's never a problem in quiet rehearsal, and it almost always is somehow tied to my trying to discern pitch from my bass in a loud room.

 

[pepj]

Ime, when your hearing goes..or fatigues, your brain focuses on what you are trying to hear but filters out the background so you lose reference.

If you all play quieter, do you still 'lose' the track or reference?
I think IEM might be something you might need but might introduce other issues, albeit more manageable.

 

[ga_edwards]

Yes, I've tried that. Thank you.

The problem isn't hearing my own voice, but in my ability to discern a proper reference pitch based on what I'm hearing on stage, most specifically when I'm singing solo (so no other vocalists to reference). I don't have perfect pitch, unfortunately. When I try to reference my own bass notes, the amount of ambient reverberation and low-end in the room smears my perception to the point where I THINK I'm hearing (in my mind's ear) the right pitch when in fact I'm off (always flat) by up to a whole step. It's bizarre, and only a few years ago did it become an issue. Aging, and deteriorating hearing playing a part, my guess.

I'll have to try an IEM system with predominant other instruments (guitars) in the mix (somewhat at the expense of hearing my own bass) for me to have solid pitch bearing. I hope it works. I'm worried that a big part of the problem is simply ear fatigue causing my sense of relative pitch to go south, since it only happens later in performances where there is significant volume. It's never a problem in quiet rehearsal, and it almost always is somehow tied to my trying to discern pitch from my bass in a loud room.

In that case, I'm almost certain IEMs will help. Not only is the sound clearer than traditional wedges as they filter out ambient noise, but crucially, they have a volume control. If as you say, you can discern pitch better at lower volumes, then IEMs should help in this regard, and save what's left of your hearing. With a decent system, you'll be able to choose your own mix independent of FOH, and apply eq as necessary. With the volume kept under your control, you may not have to sacrifice your bass in the IEM mix either.

 

[Turnaround]

Put that on your mic stand along with your beer holder, ipad holder, pick holder, tip jar, accessory tray and stereo mic adapter. Then go buy a sturdier mic stand. And guess what? None of the acessories fit on the new stand!

 

[Plucky The Bassist]

No, not against IEM, but just stating that I didn't use in-ears. Our drummer has been on IEM for a while and loves it. Looks like I'll need to turn over some gear to fund this. Thanks for the info.

I know the topic can be divisive for some, and everyone needs to do what works best for them, but at no point did I go "Wow, can't wait to get away from these IEM!" when I joined another band that didn't use them. The gear setup and wiring has more points for failure (IME) and can be an added cost, but I DEFINITELY preferred using them and felt our playing was much tighter when we did. I think it's worth giving it a try, especially given your initially-cited concerns.

 

[KenD]

Don't worry about it, man. A story about Neil Young, probably apocryphal:

Someone once said to him, "You're singing flat". He thought about it for a second and replied, "That's my style, man."

 

[Jeff Hughes]

Earplugs will help you hear the inner vibration of your voice. Of course, it may put a wet blanket on your gig experience.

I rehearse with IEMs and half an half gig with them. I still like earplugs as a low tech easy and comfortable way to hear yourself and not do hearing damage.

 

[TyBo]

Reading that this issue arises with volume and noise increase ... I'll have to be the one to say it ... turn down?

 

[jTrolt]

I can relate. IEM's are not necessarily 100% cure for this issue. On certain stages, odd phase cancellation between mains, room ambience and direct delivery of signal through the IEM's can make it hard to perceive pitch. Sometimes it seems standing on stage is like being inside a pitch-shifting pedal, and your brain can easily gravitate towards the wrong, delayed (flat) signal as the chaos of live sound is swirling about the place with all manner of phase cancellation and pitch bending oddities thrown at your sensory perception.

I'd say its more the above than it is tinnitus/age creating the issue, as we have people half my age in the band experiencing the same struggle. Thankfully, it seems only a few songs present this issue, and only in just the right atmosphere.
Remedies: Drop a hint for your brain (or lead vocalist) by striking the octave by fret or harmonic on songs where the bass may be droning far below normal vocal range. Also, if any song in particular is proving challenging in this regard, be sure to have adequate support of the main rhythm instrument holding down the chord changes (keys, guitarist, etc.). You may need to pull that player up in your monitor mix for certain songs.

 

[jimfist]

Reading that this issue arises with volume and noise increase ... I'll have to be the one to say it ... turn down?

Waaaaayyyy too easy, but you are correct to some extent. Without plugs or IEM, we're at the mercy of our drummer, who is a pretty aggressive hitter, and we play a lot of hard, heavy music. Ironically, our drummer is the only one who uses IEM, and he loves it. LOL. And he doesn't sing.

So, the rest of us (me on bass + 2 guitarists, all of us are DI using modelers) have to keep up with the drum level, and the FOH PA system is sizeable with pumping subwoofers, playing mostly in rooms of about 300 capacity, and our audience doesn't really expect a polite, well controlled volume. They show up to blow off steam. True warriors, they are.

All this pretty clearly indicates that my best bet is going to be IEM. Old dog, new tricks. Part of the joy of gigging has always been the energy of the show, and the room/PA volume has a lot to do with it. But after 40+ years of gigging this way, it's finally caught up to me and seriously impacting my (solo) vocal performances.

***Mainly, though, I was just wondering if anyone else out there has experienced the same as I have WRT getting pitch-confused due to dominant loud bass frequencies. If I want to continue singing lead vox, looks like I'll have to make the sacrifice and try IEM...of give up on singing lead (which would be fine with me).

 

[elgranluis]

Thanks. I actually own that system. Our stage wedges are excellent, but the problem isn't my ability to hear my vocals or the others, but my inability to locate a reference pitch due to the extended loudness of it all.
I'm guessing that a full band mix IEM would help sort this situation out.

Im used to earplugs. While all you hear is a muffled version of the song, I find that the sounds are “simplified” as in “all the extra fuzz is gone “. That might make it easier to get that reference pitch.

Now, I’ve used earplugs (nothing fancy ) ever since I started playing so I’m used to the way music sounds with them -!: I don’t mind. YMMV

 

[jimfist]

I can relate. IEM's are not necessarily 100% cure for this issue. On certain stages, odd phase cancellation between mains, room ambience and direct delivery of signal through the IEM's can make it hard to perceive pitch. Sometimes it seems standing on stage is like being inside a pitch-shifting pedal, and your brain can easily gravitate towards the wrong, delayed (flat) signal as the chaos of live sound is swirling about the place with all manner of phase cancellation and pitch bending oddities thrown at your sensory perception.

I'd say its more the above than it is tinnitus/age creating the issue, as we have people half my age in the band experiencing the same struggle. Thankfully, it seems only a few songs present this issue, and only in just the right atmosphere.
Remedies: Drop a hint for your brain (or lead vocalist) by striking the octave by fret or harmonic on songs where the bass may be droning far below normal vocal range. Also, if any song in particular is proving challenging in this regard, be sure to have adequate support of the main rhythm instrument holding down the chord changes (keys, guitarist, etc.). You may need to pull that player up in your monitor mix for certain songs.

Bingo! Good to know it's not just me. Thank you for this. It's exactly what seems to be going on. To make things worse, we're alternating between standard 440 and E-flat tunings. I actually have tried some of your methods to get my brain focused on correct pitch, but it doesn't always work out. Thankfully, I'm only vocal support most of the time, and might only sing lead for a few tunes in a performance. Not the end of the world for anyone if I back off singing lead, as we have 2 lead singers who split the load.

Interesting what you say about IEM maybe not solving the problem, because when I have used ear plugs, I found that it, too, could caused a false sense of the correct pitch. Oh well. Thanks again for the great info.

 

[HardNHeavy]

what about a pitch pipe, will you even hear it onstage is the question..

 

[jTrolt]

Interesting what you say about IEM maybe not solving the problem, because when I have used ear plugs, I found that it, too, could caused a false sense of the correct pitch. Oh well. Thanks again for the great info.

Certainly. Of further note: as I transitioned to IEM's, I had an odd compulsion to keep one ear open, mainly so I could enjoy the sound of my amp. This was when I had the most problems with said issue. Once I committed to both IEM's, singing became easier for me, without question. I still keep a single 12 near-field, which adds a touch of sweetness over and above the IEM's, and most of the band, still wearing IEM's, prefers the feel of that live bass amp presence on stage too. (Lucky guy, no?)
Just want to be clear that you could have some struggles, but IME, IEM's are a step in the right direction.
Enjoy!