LOL....not at any level of any band I've played with - not while they are playing.what about a pitch pipe, will you even hear it onstage is the question..
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Vocal pitch issues
- Thread starter jimfist
- Start date
Well, the dilemma is that I CAN HEAR my vocal perfectly clearly. What I have trouble with is locating pitch accurately in the heat of the mayhem. Listening to myself sing a lead vocal nice and loud, knowing that I'm not on pitch, is a form of torture I don't wish on anyone with a shred of pride in their work. Humiliating doesn't begin to describe it. But sure, I guess it can happen to anyone. Didn't Huey Lewis develop something similar, bit far worse and more debilitating? For him it was life-changing stuff. I feel lucky by comparison.
Yup. Sounds like we're in the same boat. No gigs coming up for a bit, but I'll be sure to follow up on this. Will be trying IEM hoping it helps significantly.
Can you reference it off you bass since you are hearing that the loudest on you r IEMs? Me myself I learn the head or melody of the tunes I play on the bass. During rehearsal, my piano player (who is a good pianist) would sometimes tell the vocalists that we work with to work with me on the melody because I could play it on the bass.
I use my IEMs with a little Rolls mixer I have mounted to my mic stand. It has three channels, so I can control the volume in my IEMs of my mic, my instrument, and a click track/band mix from the board.
This setup basically solved all my monitoring problems, and also helps protect my ears since I’m wearing earplugs and can control the volume.
This setup basically solved all my monitoring problems, and also helps protect my ears since I’m wearing earplugs and can control the volume.
So, i didnt read all the responses yet, if this has been suggested already, my bad. If you can, try a wired IEM first to see if you like it before dropping decent coin on a wireless system. That was my plan and I have just stuck with the wired version. I play keys too and sing backups frequently so I am not traveling too far. A few years ago I got a wired system for around $100...still using it with no issues.
I do think there is a certain SPL beyond which singing in tune gets progressively difficult.
Does everyone have their own personal mix? In my experience, most prefer their voice and instrument to be at last 6-10dB louder than other sound sources. Achieving this can be virtually impossible in small spaces, even with separate mixes. If you have a personal mix, leave the vocals and bass at whatever level you need, and turn the rest down. If you are getting plenty of a sound source from another monitor, take it completely out of your monitor. This will be beneficial in multiple ways: 1. Your monitor receives a less complex signal that is easier to reproduce. 2. Having some of the sound coming from a different direction will make it easier for you to distinguish between sound sources. 3. Any reduction of SPL at your listening position is a good thing.
Another big no, no is compressed vocals in the monitors. This can present a challenge, as vocals really benefit from being compressed in the FOH mix, but too much compression on the vocals in the monitors tends to make people feel disconnected from their voice.
What sort of EQ is being applied to your voice. With a highly directional mic, you get a lot of proximity effect (bass boost). To get a more natural sound you have to cut the lows considerably.
The baseline EQ I start with for vocals looks something like this:
I run the HPF up till it thins out the lows a bit. I also convert the Low and High shelving controls so I have four bands of parametric EQ. I spend quit a bit of time dialing in the slope of the lows and low mids. This is so the timbre and texture of the voice stays relatively consistent across your vocal range. The other thing I work on is balancing out the mids and sibilance. This involves tweaking the shape and center frequencies of the mid dip and peak in the mids.
Normally the channel strip on a mixer can only generate one EQ curve. The EQ curve is generally prioritized for the house mix. The monitors either get the same curve (post EQ send) or they get an unprocessed (flat) signal (pre EQ send).
If you consistently use the same system and tech, it's possible that channels can be dual assigned so separate processing can be applied to the house mix and monitor mixes. I used Yamaha digital mixer and to achieve this we simply dual assigned the inputs across two fader levels. For example Fader Level A (chan 1-32) was used to dial in the house mix. Fader Level B (chan 33-64) was use to dial in the monitor mixes. If it's not clear: Input 1 is routed to chan 1 and 33, Input 2 is routed to chan 2 and 34, Input 3 is routed to chan 3 and 35, etc.
This sort of setup gives you lot more ability to customize, but it's also a lot more confusing and time intensive.
I use a Sensaphonics 3DME which provides can work with or without an IEM mix. On it's own, it is active hearing protection with EQ, a limiter, and ambient mics.
You can daisy chain it with a monitor mix...I send it my bass and everyone's vocals (and mix it with the built in ambient mics)...but if I don't have a monitor mix, I can still use the 3DME alone effectively and it helps my pitch.
Best used with custom fit sleeves made by your audiologist, but can be used with universal fit sleeves.
3DME BT Gen2 Music Enhancement IEM System
You can daisy chain it with a monitor mix...I send it my bass and everyone's vocals (and mix it with the built in ambient mics)...but if I don't have a monitor mix, I can still use the 3DME alone effectively and it helps my pitch.
Best used with custom fit sleeves made by your audiologist, but can be used with universal fit sleeves.
3DME BT Gen2 Music Enhancement IEM System
I also play in a rock band.
Like most bands these days, we have learnt and understood the importance of having a lower stage volume.
We play tighter, and the vocals are much more on point when the volume is moderate.
We do a sound check and do not alter the volume on any instrument from that point on.
(A sound guys nightmare).
The volume to the crowd is all carried by the PA.
If the sound guy wants to turn the music up louder as the night goes on, he can.
But we don't touch our instrument volumes nor turn up the stage mix as the night goes on.
The crowd still gets a big sound when needed, and we play way better for it.
I also sing backing vocals and it is so much easier to hit harmonies when volume is moderate and you can hear the other singers clearly.
Loud stage sound is old school and doesn't contribute anything.
I go to see a lot of local bands, and its the ones playing way too loud that never sound as professional.
Just being honest and giving my perspective after playing live for 35 years.
Like most bands these days, we have learnt and understood the importance of having a lower stage volume.
We play tighter, and the vocals are much more on point when the volume is moderate.
We do a sound check and do not alter the volume on any instrument from that point on.
(A sound guys nightmare).
The volume to the crowd is all carried by the PA.
If the sound guy wants to turn the music up louder as the night goes on, he can.
But we don't touch our instrument volumes nor turn up the stage mix as the night goes on.
The crowd still gets a big sound when needed, and we play way better for it.
I also sing backing vocals and it is so much easier to hit harmonies when volume is moderate and you can hear the other singers clearly.
Loud stage sound is old school and doesn't contribute anything.
I go to see a lot of local bands, and its the ones playing way too loud that never sound as professional.
Just being honest and giving my perspective after playing live for 35 years.
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I have experienced that inability to discern pitch at times even with in ear monitoring. I would say that in my experience, the bass is the WORST instrument to try to key from, as our brains aren't as sensitive to the pitch of low frequencies as to the midrange. I find having a solid bit of guitar in my ears is what helps the most. Also, if you have a click track in your ears, be sure to tune the clicks to the individual songs - having a repeating out of key sound in your head makes singing in key with the song near impossible!
My ex wife (who is a decent singer) was once pulled up on stage at a concert - "here, sing along with this". It was one of her favorite bands, and that concert was recorded for the local series of Radio concerts - as a result I've heard it several times. She was WAY off key - embarrassingly so. Loud volumes are bad for pitch in two ways: First, with everything else loud, hearing yourself is tough - there's usually too much going on. Second, your pitch perception is off when things are loud. Choirs, if they sing A Capella, will drift flat unless there are some singers with great pitch who can hold the choir on pitch - sopranos hear themselves loud enough in their heads, that they think they're sharp (volume makes things things sound sharp), so they sing flat to compensate.
In ears and reasonable volumes are the real way out of this.
In ears and reasonable volumes are the real way out of this.
Bass is the toughest instrument - the overtones are where we perceive pitch, and everything else is in the way. You need more of yourself (and, more importantly, less of everyone else) to hear yourself well with in ears.
Well, please accept my sympathy on behalf of your wife, and thanks for interesting vocal info.
Funny, but there were a couple times when I was forced to go ampless on stage and the house PA stage wedges crapped out. Our sound guy said that I sang better without any bass or vocal in the malfunctioning wedge, and I should try it more often. LOL. Might be something to that.
Yep, I've had this problem many times. I think it's a combination of volume, tired ears, and too much low end. See if you can 1) get the stage volume more controlled with your band, 2) attenuate your low end onstage, and 3) Notch out boomy frequencies/clean up your bass EQ.
I've had lots of moments on gigs where my bass literally sounds a quarter step of it to my ears and it confuses my ear to the point where my ears are clinging to the guitars for references to sing to. It's bizarre. It's only ever happened on loud stages, on certain songs, and at least halfway through the night. I don't know if your situation is similar, but it does not happen when stage volume isn't crazy loud, and when the low end is controlled.
I had this happen once. I mean, it happens to various degrees occasionally, where it’s tougher to hear other signers or musicians and I’m working harder to find pitches. But it really HAPPENED once. In that moment, I simply couldn’t recognize any pitches within the noise. I knew what key we were in because I was playing bass. But I can’t just sing a D without any context. That was humbling!
The best I can suggest is to avoid mixing your monitor (in-ears for me) to sound “good.” My in-ear mix is not a blend of the band in the way that I’d want a listener to hear an album. No, I focus on the important musical information and that’s pretty much it. A little bit of guitar and keys so that the chord changes are apparent. A touch of kick drum to help me stay locked to the drummer. No horn mics or drum overhead, they bleed into the vocal mics well enough to identify ongoing solos and whatnot. Lead vocals and other backing vocals just enough to harmonize. Plenty of my own vocal. And my bass signal is actually a thinned-out version run from a separate EQ so that I don’t double dip on low end reaching my skull from both my nearby amp and my in-ears; it can get muddy, like your sub situation.
Bottom line is that your signal-to-noise ratio probably gets too small during those loud sets. Identify the noise and reduce it, because increasing the signal becomes impractical when the whole mix is stupid loud.
TLDR. I have the same issues as the OP, however both bands I'm are silent stage/IEM's. One issue is having your bass up loud in your ears, low frequencies at too much volume will fatigue your ears to the point of tone deffness. Get your bass tone frequencies moderated, bass volume enough to hear yourself play but not overpowering. Add enough reference (guitars, keyboards) to find pitch to your mix, and keep the volume to your rars moderated. Works for me.
Practice singing and playing a lot on your own, without the drummer and guitarist playing too loud. Singing is like a muscle, you can have muscle memory for your vocal cords. I have been challenging myself lately, singing harmony while playing fretless in a 50's cover band. Hear the pitch before you sing. It is not foolproof, your milage may vary, but without detailing the crap I have recently been through, it is possible.
^^^^This is where I'm headed ^^^^
Time to sell some gear that's collecting dust and get a good IEM system going. We'll see how it works out, fingers crossed.