w(h)atts ?

[Omega Monkey]

So, yeah, in the real world, a good rule of thumb is that your cabs' power handling is equal or greater than your amp's power output, which is not a hard and fast rule if you're careful, but it's inadvisable to go with speakers rated less than half of your amp's output (at the relevant impedance, ie a 600w amp might be 300 at 8 ohms, so you could get away with a 150w 8 ohm cabinet IF you're really careful and don't go crazy with volume or bass EQ). The other rule of thumb is that bass speakers have a mechanical limit that's usually in the neighborhood of about 1/2 the thermal limit (ie the published RMS power handling). So if your speakers are rated less than twice your amp's output, you just need to be aware of that and not go too crazy with volume and/or bass EQ, and understand that knob position means nothing and you can be at rated output of the amp literally anywhere on the volume knob.

The other thing is to think of it with common sense. If you had an amp that could only put out 800w, and you could just hook up 2 cabs and they would each get 800w, you've essentially just doubled your power magically just by adding a cab. So obviously that's not correct and the speakers split the power. Otherwise people would just get 8 100w cabs and a single 100w head and be crazy loud.

 

[Al Kraft]

Through a 1/4 non shielded speaker cable, at that.

Good call on the type of speaker cable..."shielded speaker cable" is not only unnecessary here (it's only used in some very unique applications and generally to protect other things not improve S/N at the speaker), but AFIK it's never recommended by any manufacturer for connecting bass guitar amps and cabs. In fact shielded cable can introduce some problems with certain amplifier designs.

I would recommend rethinking that 1/4" speaker cable connector for multiple reasons, but mostly because at 1000 Watts and your "unknown to me" amplifier topology I always go for the safe play. Quite frankly the 1000 Watt amp alone sealed the deal relative to ditching the 1/4" connector for me. YMMV!

 

[/\/\3phist0]

thanks additionally!
maybe not expressed in my postings but I'm not really after more volume (you're right Bassamatic there is 500 watts already) but rather doing something about tone and musicality and appreciating the Mesa sound and working with the cabs I own at present, with an eye towards options in future with upgrades in the cab department.
Seems I'll get options and some modicum of safety if I use the 2 ohm setting in the amp..?

thanks again!

I almost always have the 2ohm switch engagued. No need of the volume most of the time. Insurance, plus l like the sound of the mesa when the amp is pushed.

 

[timplog]

would this 1/4" end need insulation as well, do you suppose, to be safe?
thanks again

oops, wrong thingie
blushing

 

[agedhorse]

I almost always have the 2ohm switch engagued. No need of the volume most of the time. Insurance, plus l like the sound of the mesa when the amp is pushed.

Correct, you will enter the output tube emulation a little earlier this way, and for some like yourself, it is a desirable enhancement.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Good call on the type of speaker cable..."shielded speaker cable" is not only unnecessary here (it's only used in some very unique applications and generally to protect other things not improve S/N at the speaker), but AFIK it's never recommended by any manufacturer for connecting bass guitar amps and cabs. In fact shielded cable can introduce some problems with certain amplifier designs.

I would recommend rethinking that 1/4" speaker cable connector for multiple reasons, but mostly because at 1000 Watts and your "unknown to me" amplifier topology I always go for the safe play. Quite frankly the 1000 Watt amp alone sealed the deal relative to ditching the 1/4" connector for me. YMMV!

Sure, I'm fully aware of the need for a speakon, but it's my church's fear, I dont have to bring my own, and its been going like that for years. It's a peavey headliner, and some old peavey 4 ohm 210 cab. 90's I'd guess. Its built sturdier than the building. Even though its power rating sucks. Still sounds great though.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

You drive a 200w cab with a 1000w amp? Well that tells me everything I need to know.

Actually all I really need to know is that my salmon steak is nearly ready... wild Alaskan salmon cooked in a foil parcel with strips of fresh ginger, garlic and chilli, with ground black pepper and a little olive oil. This is much more important

Yes I do. Been doing it for years. I've never damaged a speaker that wasn't in my car.

 

[JeezyMcNuggles]

Sure, I'm fully aware of the need for a speakon, but it's my church's fear, I dont have to bring my own, and its been going like that for years. It's a peavey headliner, and some old peavey 4 ohm 210 cab. 90's I'd guess. Its built sturdier than the building. Even though its power rating sucks. Still sounds great though.

Gear, not fear

 

[Rip Van Dan]

many thanks !
good news on the wattage front and really excellent to know that agedhorse has the time and generous inclination to help us in this forum.
nice sense of community

I won't be driving these much more than 1/3 power but will double check RMS ratings, thanks
looking forward to my first Mesa experience!

thanks
stay well

Presuming they are the MarkBass New York 121 or New York 121 D2, here are the specs.

New York 121 , the one without the tweeter horn:
IMPEDANCE8 ohms
SPEAKER SIZE: 1x12 in.
BASS PORT: rear
TWEETER: piezo
POWER HANDLING: 400W RMS (AES Standard)
CROSSOVER FREQUENCY: 3.5 kHz
FREQUENCY RESPONSE: 45 Hz to 18 kHz
SENSITIVITY: 100 dB SPL
WEIGHT: 29.98 lbs / 13.6 Kg
WIDTH: 14.96 in. / 38 cm
HEIGHT: 16.73 in. / 42.5 cm
DEPTH: 14.17 in. / 36 cm

If it's the one with the tweeter horn, the New York 121 D2 then here are those specs for you:
Speaker Size: 1 x 12”
Tweeter: 1" voice coil tweeter
CAB Power Handling (AES Standard): 400W RMS
Crossover Frequency: 3.5 kHz
Frequency Response: 41Hz to 20KHz
Sensitivity: 99 dB SPL
Impedance: 8 ohms
Tuned Port: Rear
Dimensions: 18.3”/ 46.4 cm (w); 18.3”/ 46.4 cm (h); 18.9 / 48 cm(d)
Weight: 34.9 lbs / 15.8 kg

I think the real concern that @agedhorse had was that the wattage rating was being quoted in peak or ratings other than rms. It's unusual to see a 112 with power handling and mechanical ability to handle 400 watts. If it was a 400-watt rating was a peak rating, that would only be 200-watts rms and not a good choice with an amp that can deliver 400-watts rms to it. 250 to 300-watts rms is more common for 112 cabinets. Be sure to dial in the HPF as @agedhorse suggested and is specified in the manual to protect your speakers from over-extension and clear up any muddiness in the low end. That's the mechanical part of it. The low bass notes with too much power can push speakers farther than they can safely go mechanically.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

greetings all
dumb question or basic un-understanding...

have two 400 watt rated 8 ohm cabs.
have an 800 watt in to 4 ohm amp.

when thinking speaker safety is this config ok?
are the 800 watts available from the amp split between the 2 cabs or do each driver need to be 800 watt rated?

looking at picking up a Mesa D800+ and in to 2 Markbass 12"" cabs I already have.

thanks for reading and wishing us all the best of the season.

Are the cabs a matched pair or designed to work together? If not, the experience may not be optimal. I would also recommend if these are not matched, you should look at a stereo amp so you can balance the output of the cabs.

 

[chadds]

You might not damage anything besides blowing the yellow off your cones.

 

[Sierra Hotel]

And that’s a bad thing?

 

[timplog]

but they're such a mellow yellow

if I haven't been cut-off yet
one answer leads to another question.
are amplifier power ratings given as peak or minimum continuous or RMS
(root mean square sounds different) or something completely, else?

 

[Al Kraft]

but they're such a mellow yellow

View attachment 4100730

if I haven't been cut-off yet
one answer leads to another question.
are amplifier power ratings given as peak or minimum continuous or RMS
(root mean square sounds different) or something completely, else?

Take a look at page 20 (the specs page) of the TT-800 manual for all the specifics, but the answer to your question relative to the Wattage is RMS. However, there are a few more aspects to the rating that are worth noting.

EDIT: I got my threads confused and forgot you have the 800+, so that would be the specs section on page 16. The rest of my answer stands!

 

[timplog]

thanks for looking that up Al
since audiophile hobby days used to THD#s so much lower than most instrument amplification #s, different tasks I get it.

seem to be hearing that RMS numbers quoted in amplifier design are more reliable than RMS numbers quoted in loudspeaker power handling marketing.
is the "AES Standard" RMS any kind of accepted Standard ?

 

[agedhorse]

thanks for looking that up Al
since audiophile hobby days used to THD#s so much lower than most instrument amplification #s, different tasks I get it.

seem to be hearing that RMS numbers quoted in amplifier design are more reliable than RMS numbers quoted in loudspeaker power handling marketing.
is the "AES Standard" RMS any kind of accepted Standard ?

Much of the amplifier distortion is intent generated by the specific design, and it’s often carefully managed too.

I have discussed speaker power handling extensively on the past. There is a 2 hour “must survive” on the AES test with no more than a 10% permanent shift in specific TS parameters, bandwidth limited. By the time a speaker has experienced a 10% shift, IMO it’s already damaged. 2 hours is not a long time for cumulative damage to build up either. In fact when the 2 hour time span is increased to 200 hours (used in a different standard), the power rating usually falls between 20 and 40%. The AES rating is in RMS units.

 

[timplog]

the science and sorcery of sound reproduction
thanks again for taking the time to explain a bit of it
and thanks for your past and ongoing contributions to the search for the sound

going to be a late christmas present but looking forward to your D800+ at the 2 Ohm setting with insulated adapters at reasonable levels!

cheers

 

[Al Kraft]

the science and sorcery of sound reproduction
thanks again for taking the time to explain a bit of it

going to be a late christmas present but looking forward to your D800+ at the 2 Ohm setting with insulated adapters at reasonable levels!

cheers

I forgot what head you're using now, but I think you'll find the 800+ very easy to dial in. Don't be afraid to do some low end shaping with different combinations of the deep switch, bass EQ knob, and HPF. You can get some cool low end voicing by using the deep switch and/or adding bass EQ and then turning up the HPF to tame the blend that would otherwise be a little too full/overwhelming.

The voicing knob when turned clockwise will also emphasize low end a bit, dip and shift the mid frequency band as you turn it further clockwise, and bump up the top end a touch. The HPF and voicing control can get you some interesting tonal variety on their own. The bright switch is very usable for opening up the top end a bit and you can tame that if it's too much with the treble EQ or upper mid semiparametric EQ.

Experimenting is the best way to learn how much versatility is in the 800+. Also, don't get fooled into thinking it's short on power. The gain and master controls will continue to give more output throughout their entire rotation. This can be a bit unusual at first depending on the pot tapers on your last amp. Once you get used to it being okay to turn the knobs up without suddenly being blasted at of the room before even getting half way through the rotation you'll wonder why all amp controls weren't designed like that.

 

[/\/\3phist0]

Correct, you will enter the output tube emulation a little earlier this way, and for some like yourself, it is a desirable enhancement.

Tube emulation's effect is not distorted in the traditional sense, it's more harmonically rich, slightly compressed. The "edge / grit" is just a harder pluck, or an increase in volume from the instrument volume knob away if I want more.
It makes for a really touch sensitive feel, especially when combined with the power amp damping of the WD800

When running on the 4/8 ohm setting (regardless of load) the threshold for this dynamic is not achievable until the volume is far above what is called for. (very loud)

 

[timplog]

So, yeah, in the real world, a good rule of thumb is that your cabs' power handling is equal or greater than your amp's power output, which is not a hard and fast rule if you're careful, but it's inadvisable to go with speakers rated less than half of your amp's output (at the relevant impedance, ie a 600w amp might be 300 at 8 ohms, so you could get away with a 150w 8 ohm cabinet IF you're really careful and don't go crazy with volume or bass EQ). The other rule of thumb is that bass speakers have a mechanical limit that's usually in the neighborhood of about 1/2 the thermal limit (ie the published RMS power handling). So if your speakers are rated less than twice your amp's output, you just need to be aware of that and not go too crazy with volume and/or bass EQ, and understand that knob position means nothing and you can be at rated output of the amp literally anywhere on the volume knob.

{The other thing is to think of it with common sense. If you had an amp that could only put out 800w, and you could just hook up 2 cabs and they would each get 800w, you've essentially just doubled your power magically just by adding a cab. So obviously that's not correct and the speakers split the power. Otherwise people would just get 8 100w cabs and a single 100w head and be crazy loud.

}

thanks indeed for your "common sense" example omega monkey -that was really well put. I guess my intuition was correct but with electricity and equipment it's nice to hear from someone who actually knows.