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Don't worry about the slight off center G. The cause of the weak G is by an interaction between the strings movement and the shape of the magnetic field produced by the pickup.
Let's say you want to keep everything like it is but are willing to do a pickup swap to address the issue and not go through a dozen pickups. Remove the stock pickup, send it to Nordstrand or whoever wants to work with you. Ask them to analyze the pickup and chose a replacement bladed pickup with a matching voicing. Custom winds are costly for lot of people. An off the shelf pickup with some passive components added is a fine alternative so you could ask them kindly to accommodate you that way.
If you don't want to send your pickup with any luck a tech near you has a LCR meter and can carry out the analysis. We are talking about full measurement of inductance, capacitance and resistance at testing frequencies in the audible range. Alnico 3 vs Alnico 5 vs ceramic will play a lesser role until the the former conditions are met. Your bass uses an Neodymium pickup unless I'm mistaken so either Alnico or Ceramic can be used to replace it.
Of course you could try an off the shelf willy nilly but your new pickup will take the place of stock pickup in a active system, not passive. This causes things get tight when you want to keep the original qualities. The stock preamp was, no doubt, designed with the properties of the stock pickup in mind and any differences in a new pickup will be literally amplified by the preamp controls. Aftermarket pickups have different goals, for instance sounding good with the manufacturers own preamps or sounding good passive.
Lastly a MM pickup with a J type pole arrangement could be considered as a middle ground if blades change the voice of the bass too much. Either way the properties of the stock pickup need to be considered to keep what the original pickup brought to the table as much as possible.
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Please keep us posted on how you make out and what you decide to go with. I may be heading down the same path in the near future.
Well...
I spoke w the folks at Nord yesterday. Nice people! They sure know about this issue and are happy to suggest a new pup to help w it. They don't think their passive pup will work w my stock (very hot) pre, so they suggested I run it passive and update the pre with something compatible if I decide I miss being active.
Many, many options.
MM4.2
Big Blademan
Alnico 3 vs 5
etc.
Feeling a bit overwhelmed with choice, to be honest.
Of course, there are other makers to consider as well.
Bartolini
Delano
Seymour Duncan
EMG
Aguilar
Aero
Music Man - Best Bass Gear - 4-String, String Configuration: 4-String
And then there's which pre to get, since I apparently need to swap that out too?
East?
Aguilar?
TBH: I am not looking for a science project or to become a serious tinkerer with this; I just want to address a specific problem on this otherwise wonderful instrument without destroying it's character, in a way most compatible with the fretless vibe I practice. Not slap. Pino/Jaco/Victor/me. TI Jazz flats. Jazz/world/americana.
I emailed Ernie Ball and the folks at bestbassgear.com to see if they had any recommendations.
Is there a TB hive mind consensus for the best way to fix this, given my goals?
BTW: I have not yet tried to adjust the pole pieces, but the dude at Nord seemed to think it would only have minor impact BECAUSE the pickup on those basses is relatively weak and all the power is coming from the pre.
-Jim
I would be less than thrilled personally at the guy suggesting gutting a $2500 bass for their pickups. It would have been a fair ask for a low to mid range bass maybe.
OTOH adding some small caps or resistors directly to a pickups lead wires will do a lot to even out the differences. Pro techs do this stuff all the time. A musicians pickup breaks mid tour, the tech finds the one store in town that has a MM pickup in stock. Proceeds to swap it in and hands it off to the musician. "It doesn't sound right!" -"Let me work on that." Less than an hour later the tech hands it off again. The musician is happy now and only the tech understands what he did.
Sometimes these fixes end up in production instruments, PRS had a sweet switch based on Santana's tech's fix for the extra treble that came from switching to a wireless system. During Alnico price hikes in the 1980s G&L wired small caps in-line with their redesigned ceramic single coils to hone in the high end. It works with passive instruments, will works as good if not better with active ones.
I don't fault the guy at Nordstrand for suggesting to buy into their eco system. It's what keeps them a float. But was that really what the client wanted, or needed?
I'm personally giving lowering the pickup the old college try. I'm used to following Fender specs but MM pickups do need to be set further away from the strings per EB's FAQ. It's the solution that most certainly will retain the original qualities.
OTOH adding some small caps or resistors directly to a pickups lead wires will do a lot to even out the differences. Pro techs do this stuff all the time. A musicians pickup breaks mid tour, the tech finds the one store in town that has a MM pickup in stock. Proceeds to swap it in and hands it off to the musician. "It doesn't sound right!" -"Let me work on that." Less than an hour later the tech hands it off again. The musician is happy now and only the tech understands what he did.
Sometimes these fixes end up in production instruments, PRS had a sweet switch based on Santana's tech's fix for the extra treble that came from switching to a wireless system. During Alnico price hikes in the 1980s G&L wired small caps in-line with their redesigned ceramic single coils to hone in the high end. It works with passive instruments, will works as good if not better with active ones.
I don't fault the guy at Nordstrand for suggesting to buy into their eco system. It's what keeps them a float. But was that really what the client wanted, or needed?
I'm personally giving lowering the pickup the old college try. I'm used to following Fender specs but MM pickups do need to be set further away from the strings per EB's FAQ. It's the solution that most certainly will retain the original qualities.
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@jimgray: The first question I always ask when this comes up is:
Does the G string have normal volume when you bend it toward the center of the polepieces?
On my '92 ash/rosewood 3 band EQ that was absolutely the case. I tried flats, different rounds, raising and lowering pickup and saddle heights. None of those made an appreciable difference.
Then I replaced the stock pickup with a Bartolini and added a series/parallel/single coil switch, and then discovered while the bar polepieces 100% solved the weak G string problem, I still hated the boom/click tone of the preamp. In this case the solid EBMM construction is counterproductive - because the pickup and bridge are mounted into threaded metal inserts, and there are those two big posts anchoring the bridge you can't futz with the saddle spacing at all. Perhaps you could have a tech re-slot some new saddles to match the pickup...but then you risk messing with the overall string alignment over the neck.
As others have noted (including Sterling Ball...too bad the poor guy isn't in any position to solve the problem
)...the preamp voicing, and stock parallel wiring doesn't help...the mid control beefs up the sound up to around the 7th fret on the D string and then everything above that sounds thin.
I think Tony Levin was onto something when he had EBMM make him that 3 string 'Ray...
Does the G string have normal volume when you bend it toward the center of the polepieces?
On my '92 ash/rosewood 3 band EQ that was absolutely the case. I tried flats, different rounds, raising and lowering pickup and saddle heights. None of those made an appreciable difference.
Then I replaced the stock pickup with a Bartolini and added a series/parallel/single coil switch, and then discovered while the bar polepieces 100% solved the weak G string problem, I still hated the boom/click tone of the preamp. In this case the solid EBMM construction is counterproductive - because the pickup and bridge are mounted into threaded metal inserts, and there are those two big posts anchoring the bridge you can't futz with the saddle spacing at all. Perhaps you could have a tech re-slot some new saddles to match the pickup...but then you risk messing with the overall string alignment over the neck.
As others have noted (including Sterling Ball...too bad the poor guy isn't in any position to solve the problem
)...the preamp voicing, and stock parallel wiring doesn't help...the mid control beefs up the sound up to around the 7th fret on the D string and then everything above that sounds thin.I think Tony Levin was onto something when he had EBMM make him that 3 string 'Ray...
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Anyone can temporarily string the bass as a lefty, or vice versa, to find out.
Interesting update, for y'all playing along from home...
A very helpful tech from EB/MM suggested I check the level of magnetization on this pickup using a magnetized screwdriver. Turns out that the strength of the magnetization on the poles closest to the bridge is far weaker than the others. The pole staggering is (I'm betting) also a factor, and I also note some surface corrosion on them.
He suggested that it would be possible to have the factory replace the pickup, but that I'd need to return this one to them since it is proprietary. I've shared back all of my findings w him - we'll see where it goes, but I'm liking this path so far.
I also need to do some more experimentation with eq on my amp (Magellan). May be able to counter this.
A very helpful tech from EB/MM suggested I check the level of magnetization on this pickup using a magnetized screwdriver. Turns out that the strength of the magnetization on the poles closest to the bridge is far weaker than the others. The pole staggering is (I'm betting) also a factor, and I also note some surface corrosion on them.
He suggested that it would be possible to have the factory replace the pickup, but that I'd need to return this one to them since it is proprietary. I've shared back all of my findings w him - we'll see where it goes, but I'm liking this path so far.
I also need to do some more experimentation with eq on my amp (Magellan). May be able to counter this.
Back from band practice. To test my theory I purposely set the pickup height to Fender specs, last time it was backed of slightly. String balance turned out rather bad, both the G and D strings got drowned out, especially near the nut. I had to rearrange my bass lines to favor the E and A strings on the spot to hear my self.
so - a lower pickup height solved the problem for you? What’s the ideal string->pole distance?
I'm about to find out. I hear the balance issues super clearly in a band context so I'm changing my height adjustment each time and taking notes. Next time I will try with the pickup lowered to to EBMM factory spec.
Hi folks-
My latest success on this front has been to convert my Stingray fretless to BEAD.
I bought a TI Jazz roundwound B string and shifted my other strings over.
I then leveled my PUP (I had previously raised the G string).
All of this has made a significant difference.
All strings seem quite balanced (at least in my basement).
We'll see how it feels on my next gig.
Do I miss my G string?
Sure.
Do I like the new B string?
yup. Lots.
Let's see how it feels on my gig...
Jim
My latest success on this front has been to convert my Stingray fretless to BEAD.
I bought a TI Jazz roundwound B string and shifted my other strings over.
I then leveled my PUP (I had previously raised the G string).
All of this has made a significant difference.
All strings seem quite balanced (at least in my basement).
We'll see how it feels on my next gig.
Do I miss my G string?
Sure.
Do I like the new B string?
yup. Lots.
Let's see how it feels on my gig...
Jim
Welp-
That was a short-lived experiment.
I am not a BEAD player. Far too much of my voice and harmonic interest comes from the G string.
B is coming off and I'll continue playing around with options. I'll save the B for a 5-string I'll buy someday in the future. BTW: 136 is a LOT of string - holy cow!
One thing I'm definitely going to do is to record my next gig to see how much of this is real vs in my head.
My rig is great at projection/dispersion (Genzler Magellan 800 + 1x 12-3).
It's entirely possible that this isn't as much of a problem as I think it is.
If it is, I will replace the pickup and pre if needed, then verify the impact by recording again and a/b-ing carefully.
If anyone has suggestions on which pup/pre combination will address this issue while not killing the stingray sound, I'd really appreciate it.
thanks!
Jim
That was a short-lived experiment.
I am not a BEAD player. Far too much of my voice and harmonic interest comes from the G string.
B is coming off and I'll continue playing around with options. I'll save the B for a 5-string I'll buy someday in the future. BTW: 136 is a LOT of string - holy cow!
One thing I'm definitely going to do is to record my next gig to see how much of this is real vs in my head.
My rig is great at projection/dispersion (Genzler Magellan 800 + 1x 12-3).
It's entirely possible that this isn't as much of a problem as I think it is.
If it is, I will replace the pickup and pre if needed, then verify the impact by recording again and a/b-ing carefully.
If anyone has suggestions on which pup/pre combination will address this issue while not killing the stingray sound, I'd really appreciate it.
thanks!
Jim
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Yeah, just dropping in a Nordy is low $, may solve my issue entirely, and is reversible.
Plus I can add a new pre-amp later if needed.
I think for my 2-band I want the 4.2?
Plus I can add a new pre-amp later if needed.
I think for my 2-band I want the 4.2?
So - after accidentally de-magnetizing several poles on my SR pup (keep magnets away from your pups unless you know what you are doing!) I ordered a Nordy MM4.2, it arrived quickly, and appears to have evened things out well. I think it sounds great and I'm calling this a solved problem, but it may sound slightly different than my SR pup (as one would expect).
It pairs slightly differently with my Magellan eq options, but still lots of great sound options there, so I'm not losing sleep over this and getting back to what matters most - the music. Without an original to a/b it with, it's tough to pinpoint the actual differences, if any.
If I do start losing sleep over it, I'll send my SR pup to Fender and have them send me a new one so I can install it. Unlikely at this point, I'd say, but who knows.
It pairs slightly differently with my Magellan eq options, but still lots of great sound options there, so I'm not losing sleep over this and getting back to what matters most - the music. Without an original to a/b it with, it's tough to pinpoint the actual differences, if any.
If I do start losing sleep over it, I'll send my SR pup to Fender and have them send me a new one so I can install it. Unlikely at this point, I'd say, but who knows.
Can't imagine there's anything about that particular Nordstrand that improves balance, but hey you needed to replace a busted pickup and I'm glad it's working out you.
Would you mind telling how you demagnetized the original?
Sure - I'll share my tale in case it will help someone else... Please understand that I am not an electronics expert, so this was a naive experiment, egged on by several posts I saw on various sites about this being a possible solution...
As I said earlier in this thread, I had previously determined that the 4 poles closest to my bridge were significantly weaker than the others. So - I was at Home Depot recently and saw a package of neodymium (sp?) magnets that were remarkably similar in size to the poles in my PUP. So, I figured I'd try an experiment since the pickup was already not operating at spec. I put a magnet on each of the G poles and the sound was dramatically weaker and thin. I tried flipping it around to see if that helped, to no avail. I pulled the magnets off and the damage remained.
So - after some additional research I quickly decided that it was time to stop screwing around and get a reasonable replacement to get the thing back up to spec and see if that helped. It seems to have done so, at least to a workable degree.
Can I still dial up an eq setting on my Magellan where the G doesn't seem quite as present? Sure. Easily. A heavily scooped setting combined with this bass and the relatively light TI flat G I have on it can put it back in that direction, but less than it was before. But I can also pull up many very workable settings where it is a complete non-issue, and I think those sound better than before as well. So - I'm happy overall.
One possible contributing factor is that the pole pieces are not staggered but even.
Hope this is useful to someone-
My BEAD experiment led me to think that a thicker G might help as well in my scooped eq. Any suggestions on a meatier G to pair with TI flats?
As I said earlier in this thread, I had previously determined that the 4 poles closest to my bridge were significantly weaker than the others. So - I was at Home Depot recently and saw a package of neodymium (sp?) magnets that were remarkably similar in size to the poles in my PUP. So, I figured I'd try an experiment since the pickup was already not operating at spec. I put a magnet on each of the G poles and the sound was dramatically weaker and thin. I tried flipping it around to see if that helped, to no avail. I pulled the magnets off and the damage remained.
So - after some additional research I quickly decided that it was time to stop screwing around and get a reasonable replacement to get the thing back up to spec and see if that helped. It seems to have done so, at least to a workable degree.
Can I still dial up an eq setting on my Magellan where the G doesn't seem quite as present? Sure. Easily. A heavily scooped setting combined with this bass and the relatively light TI flat G I have on it can put it back in that direction, but less than it was before. But I can also pull up many very workable settings where it is a complete non-issue, and I think those sound better than before as well. So - I'm happy overall.
One possible contributing factor is that the pole pieces are not staggered but even.
Hope this is useful to someone-
My BEAD experiment led me to think that a thicker G might help as well in my scooped eq. Any suggestions on a meatier G to pair with TI flats?
TI Flats are:
43, 56, 70, 100
I wonder if I should try a heavier gauge string for my G?
Might thicken things up where needed?
Maybe something like this: La Bella Deep Talkin' Bass Flat Wound Stainless Steel .049, 760F-049
43, 56, 70, 100
I wonder if I should try a heavier gauge string for my G?
Might thicken things up where needed?
Maybe something like this: La Bella Deep Talkin' Bass Flat Wound Stainless Steel .049, 760F-049
Hey folks,
I just wanted to add my anecdotal experience with the pole push method of fixing this issue.
I've had my 90's Stingray for over 15 years and have always felt a little disappointed by this issue, I stopped playing it for years because of it.
Anyway, just recently I joined a project which was crying out for 'that' sounds so I picked it back up. Then found this thread pretty quickly because I was reminded of the frustrations!
Anyway, long story short, I used the youtube video to move the A & D poles down so they're level with the E and G
End result - fabulous! Such a difference - everything so much more balanced and 'even'. It sounds like a new guitar.
I just wanted to add my anecdotal experience with the pole push method of fixing this issue.
I've had my 90's Stingray for over 15 years and have always felt a little disappointed by this issue, I stopped playing it for years because of it.
Anyway, just recently I joined a project which was crying out for 'that' sounds so I picked it back up. Then found this thread pretty quickly because I was reminded of the frustrations!
Anyway, long story short, I used the youtube video to move the A & D poles down so they're level with the E and G
End result - fabulous! Such a difference - everything so much more balanced and 'even'. It sounds like a new guitar.
That makes sense, staggered poles is kind of a vintage move but flat poles make the pickup more efficient and has better string balance. Don't to that with a ceramic pickup, the poles will dislodge the bar magnet in the bottom of the pickup.