What is "vote"?

[buldog5151bass]

I just saw that one of my posts got a "vote". How does that differ from a "like"?

 

[callofcthulhu]

Nobody forces you to sort by votes.

If you keep the default sorting by date, the new system doesn't ruin your user experience.

As others have explained, you like a content because you agree, or you find it amusing.

And you may up-vote for a content if you find it useful for others. Think "if I come back later on this thread and it has grown to 200 pages in the meantime, I will sort it by votes to read the most useful comments first - would I want to see this comment on top of the list?"

Like = I like it
Vote+ = this content is useful = in the future, I want to read it first on top of the list (if I sort by votes)

Sometimes, a content can be enjoyable AND useful, sometimes it can be fun but not so useful.
If it's too sophisticated for you, just ignore the voting system, it really doesn't take up much space

I just wish that one day you will come accross a thread that's super important for you, and it's super long, and you really need to find the best explanation quickly, and you think about sorting by votes, then you will understand the use, and you wil thank TB developers for implementing the feature.

I fully understand the use, I just disagree with the decision to make this website useful in that way.

We already have a problem with high profile users waltzing into threads, speaking their gospel truth, and a host of hangers on yucking it up by emphasizing the post and then dogpiling on any dissent.

The fact that you have to trawl through that cruft is what makes the forum experience what it is, and if people have the opportunity to bypass it they likely will, making them less likely to be exposed to the dissent, be soured by the sycophants, and ultimately form (and potentially express) their own opinions.

You may see that as a good thing. In which case I would say go back to reddit, and let us have our culture here.

 

[Sparkl]

But you don't have to sort by vote. You can though and where I think this will be choice is when you're searching for, say, the best tort for metal and you find a thread with 20 pages of replies. If you sort by vote, you can quickly find the top posts in the pages of replies.

Of course people will use it, did not the same happen to music when streaming services were introduced? It's skip skip skip, meh, skip all day.

 

[Sparkl]

I don't see it that way, and am glad there is no "downvote." The posts that, to continue your example, extoll choices other than Mesa will still be visible and the opinions expressed therein are still available for any interested parties to read. Those interested in simply following majority opinion can easily do so by sorting by "vote," and those interested in deeper discussion or potentially more "expert" opinions can read deeper into the thread or sort chronologically. Win/win, as far as I can see. Downvoting seems like a much more active way of silencing people, which is what you're objecting to if I read your post correctly.

Usally one has to go to extreme examples to prove a point.

So, Hitler had a large "upvote community". His popular opinion was visible to everybody and anybody. Less popular opinions, even if the popular opinion was based on wrong idealism, would then get shoved to the bottom.

Extrapolated to Talkbass terms, mesa will get upvoted because of loyal Talkbass older community upvoting it, the rest of the brands would get shoved to the bottom because Talkbass community is less vocal about them.

If that's not skewing the information then I don't know what is.

 

[callofcthulhu]

I get what you're saying.

But the truth is that disallowing the downvote also means that the popular opinion always wins which doesn't serve the case of Talkbass well here. We all know that a person asking for amp advice will get served with mesa suggestion left and right and will be further bombarded by it by sorting comments via upvotes. In my mind that's not representing the spirit of forums which exist mainly for open discussion and opinion sharing. Upvoting without downvoting does exactly the opposite because some groups of people will be more vocal with upvotes than others, resulting in skewed upvoted material. Also, you can have 20 people for mesa and will upvote that but 3 for GK, 3 for Ashdown, 3 for Hartke....etc.etc. and those will not be allowed to disagree with the popular mesa opinion by downvoting. It's not a fair share of knowledge/advice.

Not to mention the likelihood of some brands using bot services to upvote favorable content for them. Are admins ready for that? It's a big forum.

This is just an example but it can easily be extrapolated to other examples and it's not hard to see how this could be a problem from a logical standpoint.

I agree with your sentiment but disagree with the downvote being the solution to it, as that just further enables people to weigh subjective opinions as more objectively right or wrong. In other words, the problems introduced by emphasizing popular posts are not adequately addressed by also allowing unpopular posts to be de-emphasized.

Removing votes altogether is the correct decision, IMO.

 

[Sparkl]

I agree with your sentiment but disagree with the downvote being the solution to it, as that just further enables people to weigh subjective opinions as more objectively right or wrong. In other words, the problems introduced by emphasizing popular posts are not adequately addressed by also allowing unpopular posts to be de-emphasized.

Removing votes altogether is the correct decision, IMO.

I mean, I completely agree with you, if it were my way I would just remove the option alltogether. Another thing I would absolutely remove without second thought is different emote likes of a comment.

We all know how that works on Facebook, comments full of laughing emotes for no reason, all over the place.

But since I don't think they are thinking of removing it, at least adding a downvote is needed for balance - balance under fair use that is. Also, downvotes should not go below zero.

 

[gtirard]

I fully understand the use, I just disagree with the decision to make this website useful in that way.

We already have a problem with high profile users waltzing into threads, speaking their gospel truth, and a host of hangers on yucking it up by emphasizing the post and then dogpiling on any dissent.

The fact that you have to trawl through that cruft is what makes the forum experience what it is, and if people have the opportunity to bypass it they likely will, making them less likely to be exposed to the dissent, be soured by the sycophants, and ultimately form (and potentially express) their own opinions.

You may see that as a good thing. In which case I would say go back to reddit, and let us have our culture here.

I didn't create the feature, I just said that I like it, if you don't you can simply ignore it. Where's the problem?

I think there are threads where we give our personal opinion, like for example "I like P". I agree that in that case, no opinion is better than another, so in that case I will not choose "sort by votes". And I won't upvote other member's comments in these threads.

But I believe that there are other threads where we discuss technical questions, solutions, facts and science. In that case, I may upvote a comment that brings the solution, or explains a fact in a clear way. I will upvote such comment in order to help others find the most useful comments easily. And I will sometimes use "sort by votes" to find the most useful comments.

Let's say for example: "what is the minimum impedence of xxx old amp?". If the question is followed by 2 pages of "I used to love that amp", and then you see a comment in the middle of page 3 "This amp was 4 ohm minimum", what's wrong if that answer has 5 votes, and comes first when you sort by votes?

You may dissagree, it's ok, just ignore the feature.

 

[gtirard]

I fully understand the use, I just disagree with the decision to make this website useful in that way.

We already have a problem with high profile users waltzing into threads, speaking their gospel truth, and a host of hangers on yucking it up by emphasizing the post and then dogpiling on any dissent.

The fact that you have to trawl through that cruft is what makes the forum experience what it is, and if people have the opportunity to bypass it they likely will, making them less likely to be exposed to the dissent, be soured by the sycophants, and ultimately form (and potentially express) their own opinions.

You may see that as a good thing. In which case I would say go back to reddit, and let us have our culture here.

Here's a funny paradox: you want the vote feature to be removed, because you want TB to remain a place of free discussion, where all opinions are equal. But when I express my opinion (I like this feature), you become agressive ("go back to reddit"). Are we not here to discuss? Are all opinions not equal? Maybe all opinions are equal except those that differ from yours?

 

[Sparkl]

Upvote is nothing but another e-penis measurement tool.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Upvote is nothing but another e-penis measurement tool.

I think that's NBD threads

 

[Sparkl]

Here's a funny paradox: you want the vote feature to be removed, because you want TB to remain a place of free discussion, where all opinions are equal. But when I express my opinion (I like this feature), you become agressive ("go back to reddit"). Are we not here to discuss? Are all opinions not equal? Maybe all opinions are equal except those that differ from yours?

Of course opinions are not equal. Have you actually ever taken part in a conversation on TB?

There are people on this forum basically on a demigod status with their army of devoted followers which you cannot counter without all hell breaking loose.

 

[callofcthulhu]

Here's a funny paradox: you want the vote feature to be removed, because you want TB to remain a place of free discussion, where all opinions are equal. But when I express my opinion (I like this feature), you become agressive ("go back to reddit"). Are we not here to discuss? Are all opinions not equal? Maybe all opinions are equal except those that differ from yours?

That's not a paradox at all.

You're perfectly entitled to your (wrong) opinion, and I'm perfectly entitled to my (violently expressed, but nevertheless, correct) opinion, and our ability to exchange these ideas is what I want to encourage, and worry will be stifled if this system isn't removed.

If I never saw your opinion (because it wasn't sufficiently upvoted) I never would have posted - and I suspect the same would be true of you if you hadn't seen mine.

Hence my concern, whether I personally utilize the feature or not, that it will effect the overall level of discourse on the site itself - fewer voices being heard leads to fewer voices speaking.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

But a vote is a voice, a voice of approval.

 

[Sparkl]

But a vote is a voice, a voice of approval.

Do bots from china count too?

 

[MuseChaser]

Of course opinions are not equal. Have you actually ever taken part in a conversation on TB?

There are people on this forum basically on a demigod status with their army of devoted followers which you cannot counter without all hell breaking loose.

There are people on this forum who have VERY serious real-life, real-world credentials, knowledge, and skills who have earned every bit of respect they get. No one is correct all of the time (it's called "being human"), but when offering counter opinions to someone who is a proven entity in their profession, one better have their facts in serious order. One can vehemently suggest that the key of A major has two flats in the key signature, or that paralleling two 4 ohm cabs won't be a problem for an amp rated for a 4 ohm minimum load all you want, but those "opinions" ARE not equal to the opinions of folks who've proven themselves.

I've read way too many instances of folks who really don't understand the physics behind amp and speaker design or the intricacies of music theory extoll, quite strongly, factually incorrect assertions and argue vehemently with folks who attempt to point out the flaws in their statement. Heck, I've been guilty of something similar where I shared some of my likes and also concerns about a certain jazz trio performance then got my butt handed to me by Brian Bromberg here on the forum. While I've been "around the block" and am in my fifth decade of a blessed career in jazz, my opinion is NOT equal to Brian's. That's just the way it is.

 

[Sparkl]

There are people on this forum who have VERY serious real-life, real-world credentials, knowledge, and skills who have earned every bit of respect they get. No one is correct all of the time (it's called "being human"), but when offering counter opinions to someone who is a proven entity in their profession, one better have their facts in serious order. One can vehemently suggest that the key of A major has two flats in the key signature, or that paralleling two 4 ohm cabs won't be a problem for an amp rated for a 4 ohm minimum load all you want, but those "opinions" ARE not equal to the opinions of folks who've proven themselves.

I've read way too many instances of folks who really don't understand the physics behind amp and speaker design or the intricacies of music theory extoll, quite strongly, factually incorrect assertions and argue vehemently with folks who attempt to point out the flaws in their statement. Heck, I've been guilty of something similar where I shared some of my likes and also concerns about a certain jazz trio performance then got my butt handed to me by Brian Bromberg here on the forum. While I've been "around the block" and am in my fifth decade of a blessed career in jazz, my opinion is NOT equal to Brian's. That's just the way it is.

This is a prime example of a devout keyboard army.

Also, you have very selectively customized your examples to suit your argument neatly. Well talking about amp physics isn't the only debate on TB. Nor is music theory. These are objective sciences where physics or rules apply.

98% of this forum discussion is opinion based and these same "entities" force their own opinions on the matter with a devout army of followers behind them. And that... I condemn.

 

[gtirard]

That's not a paradox at all.

You're perfectly entitled to your (wrong) opinion, and I'm perfectly entitled to my (violently expressed, but nevertheless, correct) opinion, and our ability to exchange these ideas is what I want to encourage, and worry will be stifled if this system isn't removed.

If I never saw your opinion (because it wasn't sufficiently upvoted) I never would have posted - and I suspect the same would be true of you if you hadn't seen mine.

Hence my concern, whether I personally utilize the feature or not, that it will effect the overall level of discourse on the site itself - fewer voices being heard leads to fewer voices speaking.

You are overthinking this, serious, relax!

The "sort by date" remains default. If you choose "sort by vote" once, it won't become your default view, you have to select it each time you need it.

So your fear is not justified, general behaviours won't change.

(comment) Like you I dislike the generalisation of notation, ranking etc in society. I dislike what we call in France the "Uberization of society". But I really don't think there's any threat of that sort in TB, as long as the "sort by vote" doesn't become default. People are lazy, they will only use the feature when they need it.

Edit: I'm not a soldier, and I'm thankful to the old animals who share their wisdom

 

[5StringBlues]

 

[buldog5151bass]

Same advice I've been giving my son for years - consider the source. People come on here asking questions they should be asking a doctor, lawyer, or amp tech, expecting free advice. But, there are professionals here willing to help, and knowledgeable amateurs doing the same.

If it's a really important question - go see a professional and pay for their services.

 

[callofcthulhu]

You are overthinking this, serious, relax!

The "sort by date" remains default. If you choose "sort by vote" once, it won't become your default view, you have to select it each time you need it.

So your fear is not justified, general behaviours won't change.

(comment) Like you I dislike the generalisation of notation, ranking etc in society. I dislike what we call in France the "Uberization of society". But I really don't think there's any threat of that sort in TB, as long as the "sort by vote" doesn't become default. People are lazy, they will only use the feature when they need it.

Edit: I'm not a soldier, and I'm thankful to the old animals who share their wisdom

You are overthinking this, serious, relax!

The "sort by date" remains default. If you choose "sort by vote" once, it won't become your default view, you have to select it each time you need it.

So your fear is not justified, general behaviours won't change.

(comment) Like you I dislike the generalisation of notation, ranking etc in society. I dislike what we call in France the "Uberization of society". But I really don't think there's any threat of that sort in TB, as long as the "sort by vote" doesn't become default. People are lazy, they will only use the feature when they need it.

Edit: I'm not a soldier, and I'm thankful to the old animals who share their wisdom

Sorry, I don't find "relax, it's fine" a compelling argument.

It's a fundamental shift in the way the site can be used, and I don't appreciate allowing the expectation that it can and should be used that way to exist within the user base. The benefits of utility do not outweigh the cost to the culture.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

This is a prime example of a devout keyboard army.

Alternately, it's a simple recognition that a person like Bromberg - who was playing with Stan Getz at age 19 and who has gone on to become one of the most technically gifted and prolific bassists alive today on both double bass and bass guitar - might have an opinion on certain topics that has more experience and wisdom to offer than some kid who just bought a Squier, or any number of other folks on this site who apparently spend far more time and energy buying and selling basses than actually playing them.

Also, you have very selectively customized your examples to suit your argument neatly.

Well, sure. Selecting examples that don't support the point of view being put forth would be a pretty poorly constructed argument.

....talking about amp physics isn't the only debate on TB. Nor is music theory. These are objective sciences where physics or rules apply.

98% of this forum discussion is opinion based and these same "entities" force their own opinions on the matter with a devout army of followers behind them. And that... I condemn.

I've been here almost 25 years, and in all this time have never had an opinion "forced" on me. If I encounter a discussion involving people who don't seem to be open minded about a topic, I just avoid that discussion.