What's more important, the beat or the groove?

#121
bass12 said:
I agree totally. If you are trying to play a specific style then have enough respect for the music to learn some vocabulary and do the style justice. Of course, there's also the feel factor and I think that's what the OP was having a problem with.
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Well, I get that feel question, but it's gonna start with him, actually knowing what the form sounds like.

And I guess the reason I'm so big on this topic is that I had all of this conversation with my drummer who is a rhythm beast. And we were playing MJ's Can't Help It, and I came up with some fake latin groove to play over the B section. So he says, you can play a Tumbao rhythm over this part. And of course, I'm like "What's Tumbao?" So he teaches it to me, and man for some reason it was tough to get right. But he drilled me pretty good on having integrity and respect for the Latin vibe.
 
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#123
TrevorR said:
Where it becomes more complicated is ensuring that, when playing as an ensemble, the various micro variations being played by different instrumentalists complement each other rather than clashing and diminishing the effectiveness of the music
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I think you've touched a very important part of our bass player's (or any musician's) role in the rhythm section.
It's not just a bass-line itself. It's how it sounds with other lines, played by other musicians, in this or that specific environment.
 
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#124
Groove (music) - Wikipedia

"groove has been described as "an unspecifiable but ordered sense of something that is sustained in a distinctive, regular and attractive way, working to draw the listener in"


"Jeff Pressing's 2002 article claimed that a "groove or feel" is "a cognitive temporal phenomenon emerging from one or more carefully aligned concurrent rhythmic patterns, characterized by...perception of recurring pulses, and subdivision of structure in such pulses,...perception of a cycle of time, of length 2 or more pulses, enabling identification of cycle locations, and...effectiveness of engaging synchronizing body responses (e.g. dance, foot-tapping)"

Groove (drumming) - Wikipedia

"To a drummer, a groove is the drumming equivalent of a riff to a guitarist."

Beat (music) - Wikipedia

"In music and music theory, the beat is the basic unit of time, the pulse (regularly repeating event), of the mensural level[1] (or beat level).[2] The beat is often defined as the rhythm listeners would tap their toes to when listening to a piece of music, or the numbers a musician counts while performing, though in practice this may be technically incorrect (often the first multiple level). In popular use, beat can refer to a variety of related concepts including: tempo, meter, specific rhythms, and groove."

So there. Each to their own. YMMV. Nothing to lose sleep over, or ruminate about. Now close thread. :D
 
#125
Im amazed at how we can make this really complicated when it doesnt need to be. Go ask a damn drummer of any genre to play you a couple different beats that he uses.....They will play you what we call a riff, or in its technically correct term...a phrase. Its a pattern that repeats from 1 measure to several. It make take several measure to complete the pattern, may take only 1. Guarantee you though, its what every drummer on the planet means when he says hes playing a beat.

Dosnt matter what you as a bassist thinks beat means. Your drummer is the one calling it a beat. So when hes telling you what type of beat hes playing, if hes playing it correctly, your friggin job is to play the bassline (your phrase or riff or whatever you want to call it) to match his beat. pretty damn simple
 
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#127
davy4575 said:
Dosnt matter what you as a bassist thinks beat means. Your drummer is the one calling it a beat. So when hes telling you what type of beat hes playing, if hes playing it correctly, your friggin job is to play the bassline (your phrase or riff or whatever you want to call it) to match his beat. pretty damn simple
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It sounds like the drummer (like the Customer) is always right!???
Whatever the drummer plays it's all Good?

Honch said:
YMMV. Nothing to lose sleep over, or ruminate about. Now close thread. :D
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Sir, what should we do with the drummer?
 
#128
Fire the drummer, and rage quit as usual.... I thought that one would've come up at page one...;)

There's always some elephant in the room. Some DK-syndrome people. Either you leave, or get another drummer. If he hasn't got the timing, groove, or plays in a way that peps the other ones up, he will not ever get it, no matter the woodshedding and honing. Lost case.

You know about the Elephant In The Room, and Dunning-Kruger Syndrome don't you? :D

Ok then here we go again:

"Dunning-Kruger Syndrome is a cognitive bias, wherein persons of low ability suffer from illusory superiority when they mistakenly assess their ability as greater than they possess."

"Elephant in the room is an English-language metaphorical idiom for an obvious problem or risk no one wants to discuss, or a condition of groupthink no one wants to challenge. The term refers to a question, problem, solution, or controversial issue which is obvious to everyone who knows about the situation, but which is deliberately ignored because to do otherwise would cause great embarrassment, or trigger arguments or is simply taboo. The idiom can imply a value judgment that the issue ought to be discussed openly, or it can simply be an acknowledgment that the issue is there and not going to go away by itself."
 
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#129
Whousedtoplay said:
(I seriously need to stop that "booze" analogy; otherwise, our respected Moderators will accuse me of something...)

Without getting into a long and off-topic discussion, I'll just ask one question.
You said, "any two hard drinks will give me the same "feel".:rollno: :rollno:

Have you ever tried Vodka made from some oil derivatives (and YES, it exists) :thumbsdown: and high-quality Vodka, "Grey Goose" made from "superior bread-making wheat"? drool
Now, (and it's my last comparison to alcohol) could you describe the effects, the "feel" while you drinking those two hard alcohol - Vodka- drinks, and the morning after?
Do you think they are going to be same?

Before the Mods ban me, let's switch back to the Rhythm and the Groove (used quite often interchangeably).
In order to produce that "Groove", one must(!) play some kind of Rhythm (or Beats)!
It could be notated in TAB or in Standard Notation, or just showed by somebody, etc...

Let's give the same riff, rhythmic pattern to several bass players, some of them very beginners, and some of them seriously advanced.
What is going to happen to your/my "Groove" (Groove as the effect of the rhythm produced by this or that specific musician) while listening to those various levels bass players playing the same rhythm pattern, riff?

Now, let's take a super "groovy" bass player playing a super "groovy" (that's how I "feel" it) rhythm.
Just WOW, and start "messing with the bass players effects.
Let's cut all the low frequencies and add some "strange" echo, or any other unsuitable for the rhythmic pattern effects with one goal - to mess up the bass players final product - the Groove (it's how I feel that rhythm pattern produced by the bass player.)
Am I going to have the same effect, the same "feel", the same perception of the rhythm produced by the same bass player?
My answer is, NO!
Why?

Because, the rhythmic pattern is always there but the "Groove" must be produced, rendered, "cherished" by the musician.
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Okay, either I communicated poorly or, you're misreading me.
The rhythm definitely determines the groove and to play music correctly you have to play it correctly and that includes the right groove or clave or feel. I don't think that any old groove can or should be imposed on any rhythm, no matter how good that groove is on its own. I know there are people out there that think what they "feel" is right. That's not me, I know there are right and wrong feels (including ones I am god and not so good at copping), but to me - and this is entirely personal opinion, but without the groove there's little point in the rhythm. In the end it is what and how music makes you feel that matters.
As far as the booze thing, I agree good booze has a different effect than cr@&, but that's the difference between good and bad players, not the difference between different grooves.
 
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#130
bass12 said:
Yeah, and books aren't music - they just break down some of the ingredients. A lot of people here are recommending books but the first thing to do is to use your ears and listen to some music. Then, if you need some clues or guidance, you can start using your eyes. :)
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Half-true here.

The OP is talking about Latin music and never tell a cuban or a brazilian that there are no specifications in their music....
 
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#133
Honch said:
Fire the drummer, and rage quit as usual.... I thought that one would've come up at page one...;)

There's always some elephant in the room. Some DK-syndrome people. Either you leave, or get another drummer. If he hasn't got the timing, groove, or plays in a way that peps the other ones up, he will not ever get it, no matter the woodshedding and honing. Lost case."
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Wow. You are a highly educated person, and, maybe, a frequent visitor at some psychiatrists' forums, but...
I am still trying to understand why almost all threads about Groove at TB end up with "demands" to fire the drummer?
 
#134
Spin Doctor said:
And American pop, who cares? Just play something vagely resembling a song and you are good to go.

There is absolutely no comparison between the way American pop is played and Latin. Latin music always maintains its integrity. In American pop, you get to make the song as dumb as you need to, to get through it. I guess it's almost expected in a way... That seems to be the common answer / mindset for everything.

The easy answer is, do it right or not at all. Simple. There are millions of songs out there. Play something else.
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I disagree. There is a lot of great music that has come about because someone has played their interpretation of something that they haven't necessarily learned to do "right".
What's funny to me is there are jazz and classical players that can't get the feel for a metal riff.
 
#135
Engle said:
What's funny to me is there are jazz and classical players that can't get the feel for a metal riff.
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I went to a clinic by Tommy Tedesco (oh, so long ago) and asked him why the soundtrack music used in movies and TV shows was so lame. He didn't go too deeply into it but in essence the answer was, "too much music school." The technique was there but not the feel, not the groove. I never figured out whether it was musicians' preference, producer's demands or music director's prejudice. Bizarrely, the hit record and the TV/movie soundtrack were sometimes played by the same musicians!
 
#137
What's more important?
The flip or the flop
The razz or the matazz
The boogie or the woogie
The boda-bing or the boda-boom

Like the song 'Love and Marriage' says,
You can't have one without the other.

If you can't hold the beat, there is no groove.
If you can groove with the beat, well same as above.

Groove + Beat = Pocket

...and I'm sure we've all worked with musicians that couldn't find a pocket if they were wearing 3 jackets and cargo pants.
 
#138
Whousedtoplay said:
Wow. You are a highly educated person, and, maybe, a frequent visitor at some psychiatrists' forums, but...
I am still trying to understand why almost all threads about Groove at TB end up with "demands" to fire the drummer?
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Ha ha ha. No. Nothing I've said hasn't already been said by someone else. I just quote things. You don't need to understand, the thing with "firing" the drummer has turned from something that people has told us by experience, and real life, i e nothing made up, but it always ends up with "we had to fire the drummer" and when those posts piles up slowly, and is the majority of the IRL solutions to things, it turns slowly into a ironic, long time running joke. If it was about the gtrd, it would sure end up that the guitarist was fired. And it all added up to that not only should you fire the drummer, but rage quit the band too. Then it surely adds up as a pure joke and laughing stock thing. I mean what's the point of firing the drummer (or anyone) if you're going to quit anyway?:D It's those two combined that ended up as the running joke around here. And solution to all things. But of course, it means just a joke to those long running members of here, that gets the in-joke. The same with that "tort" thing on pick guards.

In all bands I've been into, there's always been some elephant in the room. Or people with more or less DK-Syndrome. I've sure been the elephant in the room too, mind you. And while maybe not that DK guy, I've been very aware of when I was part of something that I couldn't pull off, that was slightly beyond my playing skills. But that was early on, in auditions, and the other guys was desperate, in the lines of "well, there aren't to many of them out there so we have to get bassists whoever he is", but I don't feel comfortable in such situations at all, so I split before I got the offer to join. There's so much to it, than just "being able to play". Say, if prog metal isn't really my thing, I don't care if I really can pull it off and remember all the tricky parts, and play fast too. It's not the core of my musical taste. Then I'd rather bow out. Much to the bands chagrin. I do still listen to some of the things though. I always did think that it was boring to play in any hard rock band (bass), since the preevalent even 8ths that follows the guitar all of the time. Yet, I can listen to Steve Harrriss of Iron Maiden, and all those band and still like it as a listener. That's just what the bass has to play, in order for it to gain momentum.
 
#139
Whousedtoplay said:
Agree.


I also agree.



Agree.

P.S. What are we arguing about?
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Not sure exactly - I don't think arguing really anyway - just disagreeing on semantics. But I wanted to be clear on what I meant, cause it seemed like maybe you thought I was one of those "I play what I feel - even if it's bad and inappropriate" people which I don't want ANYONE thinking I am - I've played with enough of them to know they are PITAs.

EDIT- Oh yeah. I THINKmaybe you were asserting that the rhythm is the more important one and I was attempting to convince you otherwise.
If he language of my previous post lead you to think I was getting heated - that's my fault.
I GENUINELY meant that I might be expressing myself poorly (yo see I ALWAYS know what I mean, so it make sense to me) we were having a miscommunication. I was not being snarky as in YOU were misreading me in the "you are wrong and therefore a jerk" kind of way.


Whousedtoplay said:
Wow. You are a highly educated person, and, maybe, a frequent visitor at some psychiatrists' forums, but...
I am still trying to understand why almost all threads about Groove at TB end up with "demands" to fire the drummer?
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It's clear he's kidding but all threads come to "fire the drmmer" b/c as bass players, there's usually only one other person in the rhythm section to blame if there's a problem - and we don't want to blame ourselves. (Or the more optimistic version - if you don't have chemistry with the drummer you are working with, it ain't ever gonna work, so someone has to go and we're not ikely to fire ourselves)
Also, TB is on the INTERNET - all threads on the internet lead to: A. Rage; B. Porn; C. Rage Porn or; D. Adds for A, B and C - or Viagra.
 
#140
danosix said:
I don't think that any old groove can or should be imposed on any rhythm, no matter how good that groove is on its own.
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I have been always eager to "invent" some new "grooves":thumbsup: :bassist:, but...
Sometimes that "new" and "improved" groove cannot live up to the musician's expectations.

Here is one of my drum "beats", rhythm pattern that I've programmed and now I can't figure out an interesting bass riff for that pattern.:rollno: My drum pattern but no bass riff to go along with it. :thumbsdown: :help:
https://www.talkbass.com/attachment...8/?temp_hash=52652e020af09ed3749cdeffe92e640f


Playing the Bossa Nova would have not caused any headaches for me - just think about some cool waves at the beach and relax...
 

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