Ahead Of, On, Behind The Beat

tycobb73

tycobb73

Jul 23, 2006
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Grand Rapids MI
#1
I'm in a 3 piece original band. The guitarist was talking about the beat. He says most rock is played behind the beat and wants us all to play behind the beat. But he wants us all to play behind the beat at exactly the same time. The drummer and I stated that if we're all playing behind the beat at the same time and the interval in which we're behind the beat is exactly the same all the time, then it is like we're playing on the beat. You could record the song both ways and by moving one up you layer them right over each other and they'd sound the same. Therefore we weren't playing behind the beat. What makes something off beat is the fact that you're either varying the interval that you're off the beat throughout the song, or the instruments are not playing at exactly the same time in relation to each other. If the guitar player wanted the drummer to play behind the beat then the guitar player would have to play slightly ahead of the drummer. But with all 3 of us playing at exactly the same time with exactly the same interval relative to the beat throughout the song, then we were playing on the beat. Can you guys enlighten me as to which view you think is best?

By the way, this went on for an hour while I held my new 4003SW in my hands. I had literally gotten it 2.5 hours earlier.
 
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#6
Is the vocal 'on the beat' in the preposed situation?

I could imagine that you might vary this throughout. Random example: verses behind and choruses on to get a different feel. It is probably only theoretical to all play at the exact same time, so if everyone is playing ahead by their own count it might have a certain feel to it. But really there would have to be something on beat, at least occasionally, to make the intended effect work. Hi-hat, vocal? Something.
 
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#7
It sounds like your guitarist is trying to communicate a musical concept to you, but doesn't have the right vocabulary. What I do in this situation is ask them to make a playlist for me of songs that are examples of the desired sound/feel. Then I can go home, practice along with these songs, and hopefully the guitarist will say "yes, that is exactly what I was hoping for!" at the next practice.
 
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#8
Willie Nelson is renowned for singing behind the beat. But the rest of his band plays on the beat.

Perhaps your guitarist means starting on the "and" of one, or even on beat two. That's the timing of the players' entrance. I don't think that counts as playing behind the beat.
 
#10
It's possible for the whole band to hit the one on the beat and then pull the rest of the measure. Maybe that's what your guitarist is talking about? I think of Led Zep doing this pretty often and it is a great feel. There is a long 'and' between the 1/2, a short 'and' between 4/1. But yeah, the whole band behind the whole time is just dragging the beat which sounds sluggish and boring.
 
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#11
What you're talking about is the essence of style. It will be different for all kinds of music and different songs withing the same genre and even different within the same song. Some pop songs sound great to me if the tempo picks up a tad (like two or three clicks) for the bridge and then settles back for the head. Playing ahead or behind the beat could change in that example.

Instead of the 'rule' let it be a tool to use if and when it serves what you're trying to do with the music.

BTW the absence of this kind of thing is exactly what and why pre-recorded tracks sound so sterile. Many people will deal with a different bass sound or string sound or snare sound, but the problem is in the minute differences and changing time. Playing live is like life... be flexible, keep your ears on the message.
 
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#12
your guitarist does not mean what you think he means.
He wants the band to collaborate to produce a certain feel,
which he calls "behind the beat", that is all.
ask for examples.

I have always had distaste for "you just have to feel it" explanations in music.
I used to worry about the measurable precise definition of ahead / behind the beat.
exactly How far behind are we talking ? a 16th? a 32nd? a 64th?
Some posters even program metronome & synth examples in MIDI and post sound files
In which I could never hear anything useful to actual playing.

Eventually I concluded such precise analysis of concept is of no practical use.
the meaning and execution of "ahead/behind the beat" varies by context, and the variables of context are too great to measure.

the reason I changed my mind and approach was this John Paul Jones interview
he demonstrates that it is not a precise metric shift in where you play every beat,
but that some notes are on the beat while others are not.



I simply have to accept that "ahead of the beat" = rushed feel and "behind the beat" = relaxed feel.
There is no more precise definition (aside from real song examples)
And , it pains me to say, you just have to feel it.
 
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#13
This subject is so hard to put into words.

The whole thing that makes these feels the way they do, is SOME beats are played more behind or ahead than others. And maybe only by some players.

Generally a drummer would play up on top of the beat (slightly ahead), so would a guitarist. The vocals and bass tend to play on the back side of the beat. Beat one is usually a little more together, the rest of the bar can be so juicy in how it locks up.

An extreme example of this is D'Angelo (with PINO on bass!). Very squishy time. It's on purpose.

In Jazz, Ray Brown is typically way back on the beat, making the swing feel a lot deeper.

In rock, listen to AC/DC for locked in interplay like that (feels so good and tight and groovy).

Also beat feel was a big deal for Metallica on their Black album. Listen to the differences between that one and "Justice for all" album. I remember an interview back then where they had spent a ton of time working out the feel in that respect.
 
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#14
I agree with a lot of what's been said up there in the last few posts. It's hard to describe the feel. But it is all about being together on the 1. Playing behind as a bassist works best if the line you are playing is melodic, where you hit the 1 on beat and then phrase your line behind the beat like Frank Sinatra or Dean Martin would sing it (not joking, it helps me to think of it that way).

One thing though, try not to confuse tempo change with playing ahead/behind. That's different and leads to rushing/dragging.

Listen to Bonzo, especially on the foot and crashes. Band is on the 1 rest of the measure everything pulls back. That's the feel that gives life to a song, imagine if all notes in this song were right on the beat. It would be boring.


 
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#16
Rehearsals are for rehearsing the performance of a piece. Practice is for learning to play time and work on other fundamentals. The best way to make rehearsal pointless is to concentrate on stuff you should each be practicing, individually.
 
#17
Whenever I hear "Behind, on & ahead of the beat" IN that order I think of S. Copeland's work w/ the Police, Tico Torres in Bon Jovi & Neil Peart in Rush as popular examples of each.
I believe it's entirely subjective, some may feel it & some not, it's totally about feel..
 
#18
Ask your friend if he has any examples of other bands (ask for specific songs) playing what he means. He might be saying one thing, but meaning another. A few months back my lead guitarist kept saying my tone needed more "body" but what he meant was turn up the bass knob.
 
#19
Whousedtoplay said:
In short.
The drummer's kick must be PERFECTLY on the beat/pulse, and the snare drum is played slightly behind the beat.



That's as good a definition for groove/pocket as I have seen. It really is that slight delay in the snare that allows everything to groove. I find nothing more frustrating than playing with a drummer who has spent years playing with a metronome or click track who wants to play BOTH the kick and snare exactly on beat for every song no matter what feel. I much prefer the drummers that play for the song, speeding up and slowing down, playing on top of or behind the beat as necessary. That's when it gets fun. We bassists have it good, as we can lock with the kick or the snare, depending on the needs of the song. Or we can go off in a tangent and do our own thing, as long as we come back and lock in with the drums at reasonable intervals, its all good.
Click to expand...
 
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