Ahead Of, On, Behind The Beat

[Billybladez66]

Yes, the pattern changes drastically from verse to chorus, same basic progression just much more aggressive with fast 8ths and no rests. Obviously Sting is playing faster notes in the chorus with no rests, but playing faster notes with fewer rests doesn't automatically put you ahead of the beat. Sting is way out ahead of Copeland in the chorus because of where he's placing the notes in comparison to the beat, he's getting to the 1/2/3/and 4 before Copeland is. In the verse, Copeland gets there first. I have observed that Brit bassists are particularly adept at this... must be something in the fish and chips...

I think Sting and Stewart were always fighting for dominance, and not in a musical sense, enough to try and thwart the others attempt to control anything at anytime. I think they loved hating each other.

 

[Matt O]

I think Sting and Stewart were always fighting for dominance, and not in a musical sense, enough to try and thwart the others attempt to control anything at anytime. I think they loved hating each other.

I think you are totally right, and it's probably the reason they made such a dynamic rhythm section. Well, that and the dudes can play.

 

[Altitude]

Perfect example of verse on the back of the beat and ahead on the chorus. It gives the feeling of a tempo change, but the tempo remains steady. I especially like the way it gets turned around at 2:18 at the end of the last verse, going from behind to ahead. Great example!

I think that's because that tune is reggae in the verse and ska in the chorus - it is a very interesting example!

 

[Altitude]

Here's one I thought of. Juan Nelson is playing obviously behind, while everyone else is right on top unless the organ player might be a hair ahead. As I understand it, this is is a typical reggae feel.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

It's possible for the whole band to hit the one on the beat and then pull the rest of the measure. Maybe that's what your guitarist is talking about? I think of Led Zep doing this pretty often and it is a great feel. There is a long 'and' between the 1/2, a short 'and' between 4/1. But yeah, the whole band behind the whole time is just dragging the beat which sounds sluggish and boring.

Had to laugh. Your description of delaying the beat is pretty close to how my Dad defined "Swing" music when he played sax in some Big Bands in the late 40's.

 

[TripleDouble]

Listen to Dexter................Gordon.

 

[themarshall]

Rehearsals are for rehearsing the performance of a piece. Practice is for learning to play time and work on other fundamentals. The best way to make rehearsal pointless is to concentrate on stuff you should each be practicing, individually.

True, if playing covers or established tunes. Much tougher when trying to develop an original song's feel as a group.

 

[okcrum]

True, if playing covers or established tunes. Much tougher when trying to develop an original song's feel as a group.

I'd carry that over into originals, as well. The originals projects I'm in generate either a chart or .mp3 mockup for each new tune. That way everyone has time to learn the basic song and chart it if they want before we start working on it as a group.

 

[okcrum]

How do two people who disagree on feel practice individually? Practicing with a recording or metronome is not the same as practicing with another musician because their is no interaction.

That is exactly my point. I get my sh!t together on my own; the band has no time to waste teaching me fundamentals. Conversely, I have no time to waste while you work on your fundamentals. Rehearsal is for working on making the piece sound good with the whole ensemble.

I have done plenty of gigs, including originals, where all I get is a song list with keys and a recording, and playing the gigs goes just fine. This assumes musicians who have their fundamentals down. If the band can't get together the fundamentals of playing time on a tune at rehearsal, someone's not up to snuff, and that's not a gig I would hang around for.

I just went through something similar with one of the originals projects I'm in. The BL/guitarist/singer's time needs work, and we started rehearsing with a metronome. The quality of the performances went directly into the crapper, since the band members unfamiliar with click tracks were playing to stay with the metronome on every beat. Maybe that's a subconscious thing or a throwback to lessons. Once we got back to actually performing the tunes at rehearsal (and maybe checking tempo before and after) things started to sound decent again, and we could easily tell who was doing their homework and who wasn't.

 

[Fat Freddy]

I'm in a 3 piece original band. The guitarist was talking about the beat. He says most rock is played behind the beat and wants us all to play behind the beat. But he wants us all to play behind the beat at exactly the same time. The drummer and I stated that if we're all playing behind the beat at the same time and the interval in which we're behind the beat is exactly the same all the time, then it is like we're playing on the beat. You could record the song both ways and by moving one up you layer them right over each other and they'd sound the same. Therefore we weren't playing behind the beat. What makes something off beat is the fact that you're either varying the interval that you're off the beat throughout the song, or the instruments are not playing at exactly the same time in relation to each other. If the guitar player wanted the drummer to play behind the beat then the guitar player would have to play slightly ahead of the drummer. But with all 3 of us playing at exactly the same time with exactly the same interval relative to the beat throughout the song, then we were playing on the beat. Can you guys enlighten me as to which view you think is best?

By the way, this went on for an hour while I held my new 4003SW in my hands. I had literally gotten it 2.5 hours earlier.

YES

 

[Fat Freddy]

NO

 

[Fat Freddy]

MAYBE???

 

[Matt O]

Yes, in Chorus Sting is playing ahead(sometime, way ahead) of the beat. What's more, some Sting's bass-line spots sound a little bit "too hectic, almost chaotic" rhythm-wise in Chorus.
Oh yeah, I know it's Sting many years ago.

Also, I'd like to stress the following thing.
I would not compare the rhythm section/accompaniment groove with the Soloist's/singer's presentation of the main melody.
First you have a rhythmic pattern/groove, then you build/mount the embellished melody with all those "soloing" devices.

Sting is so far ahead at points he's crashing into the next measure! I think it sounds awesome.

Yeah, I hear ya on the other thing, too. If you are referring to my play it like Sinatra would sing it comment earlier, I'm not suggesting play the vocal melody. I mean imagine if Sinatra was singing your bass line with his shoo-bee doo behind the beat cadence and play it that way, you'll find yourself behind the beat without having to count it.

It's funny because well trained vocalists know exactly how to do on top, behind, and ahead. Especially in Jazz. I know that a lot of Jazz instrumentalists vocalize while playing, my guess is to get the feel without having to mentally subdivide the beat. Could be wrong on that, don't know.

 

[Wasnex]

Sting is so far ahead at points he's crashing into the next measure! I think it sounds awesome.

Yeah, I hear ya on the other thing, too. If you are referring to my play it like Sinatra would sing it comment earlier, I'm not suggesting play the vocal melody. I mean imagine if Sinatra was singing your bass line with his shoo-bee doo behind the beat cadence and play it that way, you'll find yourself behind the beat without having to count it.

It's funny because well trained vocalists know exactly how to do on top, behind, and ahead. Especially in Jazz. I know that a lot of Jazz instrumentalists vocalize while playing, my guess is to get the feel without having to mentally subdivide the beat. Could be wrong on that, don't know.

It is fairly common for skilled piano players to have the ability to move all around the beat without jacking the feel of a song. IMHO, pianist often have the best time of anyone in the band.

 

[Matt O]

It is fairly common for skilled piano players to have the ability to skillfully move all around the beat without jacking the feel of a song. IMHO, pianist often have the best time of anyone in the band.

Yep, and the list of great pianists that vocalize or hum their part while playing is pretty long. Listen to almost any Blue note recording on headphones, and you'll hear it!

 

[Laklandfan]

I'm in a 3 piece original band. The guitarist was talking about the beat. He says most rock is played behind the beat and wants us all to play behind the beat. But he wants us all to play behind the beat at exactly the same time. The drummer and I stated that if we're all playing behind the beat at the same time and the interval in which we're behind the beat is exactly the same all the time, then it is like we're playing on the beat. You could record the song both ways and by moving one up you layer them right over each other and they'd sound the same. Therefore we weren't playing behind the beat. What makes something off beat is the fact that you're either varying the interval that you're off the beat throughout the song, or the instruments are not playing at exactly the same time in relation to each other. If the guitar player wanted the drummer to play behind the beat then the guitar player would have to play slightly ahead of the drummer. But with all 3 of us playing at exactly the same time with exactly the same interval relative to the beat throughout the song, then we were playing on the beat. Can you guys enlighten me as to which view you think is best?

By the way, this went on for an hour while I held my new 4003SW in my hands. I had literally gotten it 2.5 hours earlier.

I've thought that in Rock, the guitar is often on top/ahead of the beat and the bass would be on. I learned this from degreed musicians, when I offered to track some guitar parts for a recording. They pointed out that I was playing right on the beat, like is appropriate for bass in that context, but I should be on top/ahead of beat.

 

[chadds]

Still depends on you. It's still Rock if it's Rock and you play behind. The concept of where you play you should own and do almost unconsciously. One of your best tutors is your gut after your ears. Feel the music. Some music no one is playing on the beat. The pulse is there and everyone is dancing. Listen to every kind of music. Every kind you can find. West African, Habib Koite, "Fatima"

However this may get you into analysis rather than feel, listen to Motown/Soul, Joe Tex for example. The snare could be late. The blessing in much music is that there isn't a rigid rule where you play. What could be is that there is a steady beat. For any song play late, play early. Choose. You are an original band it makes your sound.

Playing the same songs gig after gig you may play late at this gig just for fun. It allows the band to stretch. Trio Rock provides wonderful space for the bassist to be big and orchestral. Play on the beat, answer or accent after the beat. All before the next beat.

 

[Wasnex]

That is exactly my point. I get my sh!t together on my own; the band has no time to waste teaching me fundamentals. Conversely, I have no time to waste while you work on your fundamentals. Rehearsal is for working on making the piece sound good with the whole ensemble.

I have done plenty of gigs, including originals, where all I get is a song list with keys and a recording, and playing the gigs goes just fine. This assumes musicians who have their fundamentals down. If the band can't get together the fundamentals of playing time on a tune at rehearsal, someone's not up to snuff, and that's not a gig I would hang around for.

I just went through something similar with one of the originals projects I'm in. The BL/guitarist/singer's time needs work, and we started rehearsing with a metronome. The quality of the performances went directly into the crapper, since the band members unfamiliar with click tracks were playing to stay with the metronome on every beat. Maybe that's a subconscious thing or a throwback to lessons. Once we got back to actually performing the tunes at rehearsal (and maybe checking tempo before and after) things started to sound decent again, and we could easily tell who was doing their homework and who wasn't.

I believe for the most part we see eye to eye, with a few exceptions here and there.

My musical work ethic is pretty similar to yours. Come to rehearsal prepared and nail it. But there is not always agreement between two well prepared musicians on how the feel for a particular song should work especially when you are playing originals. Just because you can sight read a tune on a gig and groove with the drummer doesn't mean you are playing the feel the way the composer or bandleader desires. If you are hired to groove, you will probably be fine, especially if you are working with a good drummer you are familiar with. However, if you are hired to realize the artist's vision on an eclectic piece you may need to work on the feel a bit during rehearsal.

As you appear to be a professional sideman, I totally agree that working the feel should not occur frequently on easier and more standard repertoire. But even standard repertoire can be interpreted and if you are playing with musicians from a different part of the country, their concept of feel may be a bit different than you are used to.

I would expect working on feel to be a regular occurrence for a originals band in which the members co-write material. In this circumstance it's not really about working fundamentals, it's about the shared creative process.

 

[okcrum]

I believe for the most part we see eye to eye, with a few exceptions here and there.

My musical work ethic is pretty similar to yours. Come to rehearsal prepared and nail it. But there is not always agreement between two well prepared musicians on how the feel for a particular song should work especially when you are playing originals. Just because you can sight read a tune on a gig and groove with the drummer doesn't mean you are playing the feel the way the composer or bandleader desires. If you are hired to groove, you will probably be fine, especially if you are working with a good drummer you are familiar with. However, if you are hired to realize the artist's vision on an eclectic piece you may need to work on the feel a bit during rehearsal.

As you appear to be a professional sideman, I totally agree that working the feel should not occur frequently on easier and more standard repertoire. But even standard repertoire can be interpreted and if you are playing with musicians from a different part of the country, their concept of feel may be a bit different than you are used to.

I would expect working on feel to be a regular occurrence for a originals band in which the members co-write material. In this circumstance it's not really about working fundamentals, it's about the shared creative process.

I think we do agree. Feel is different here and there, but it's not hard to hear and support that. The weirdest thing was the first time I was out West here and someone asked for a walking bass part. Well, in the rest of the universe they call that Western Swing, and walking bass is something else entirely.

We commonly play with the feel, pulse, and genre of a number of originals in rehearsal, but we don't get hung up on stuff that doesn't work. As you say, it's part of the creative process. Today, we changed a tune (original) to try more of a "squared-up funk" feel, so we worked on parts that complemented each other for awhile. We'll probably work on that one a bit more before we get to the final thing for that tune.

From the OP I took it that at least one member of their group doesn't understand fundamentally how to play in various ways against the beat. That's a different kettle of fish entirely.

EDIT: I should probably make this part of my sig. It's important to record everything you do, but it's even more important when working on originals. Sometimes that's the only way a tune can come together, with a few iterations repeated. Rehearse, practice the rehearsal version, improve, rehearse...and repeat. It even helps on the cover gigs.

 

[pbassjbass]

Listen carefully. Then count... 1, 2, 1,2,3,4 go