Double Bass All in with 5ths tuning

#21
Thanks @JBarz I just started to make that same exact discovery about working it a time that is heavy in 4ths movement (All the things). Gonna shed hard on this. You nailed it. It’s the moving downwards to the lower string I haven’t fully normalized it and the body is needing to be retained.

good to hear you have the same experience with the La Scala. That low c is incredible even with weichs.
 
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#22
I vote this by default becomes the defacto “upright in 5ths owners manual support group club” thread.
Here’s my contribution; the first bossa tune I’ve tried to learn in 5ths. I think I’m feeling it more as a samba, tbh, but who’s to pick nit?



That’s just iPad internal mic, btw. The technology has gotten stupid good. I kind of like the funky compression, and it seems to optimize the mix for these tiny iPhone speakers. Kinda muddy, but so’s life, amiright?
 
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#23
Yeah a little bit muddy but you’re right, not bad for a phone. I had to put in headphones to hear it. Am thinking it’s not so much the tech but the lows take a little bit to blossom. You have a lot going on there! lol. Nice.

I’m only starting to mess with chords and want to bring a little bit of chord melody in on just the D and A strings but haven’t fully figured it out yet.
 
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#24
The chords on bass are a mixed bag. I would never grab voicings this low on piano, for example, just because the simple fact that they don’t sound good, lol. BUT, If you nail them perfectly in tune and don’t hit the string too hard, you can get a really neat acoustic thing happening with the gut strings that’s hard to describe (this phenomenon is not present in the above recording though - I missed the mark on this one, lol) .

Steel strings (RM Spiros) are different obviously and you have to set the action super low (like 3-4mm on high string) to be able to grab chords, (and it’s still brutal on the left hand!) but the sustain, ease of bowing, and upper harmonics make it all worth it.

If you’re interested in learning to play chord/melody, start with “‘fly me to the moon” in Bb. Chord melody on ‘All the Things’ requires high 5th string or to get way up on the neck to do it justice. I’ll work that one up with ya and post a video of it in a month or so if I can get it sounding prettier. Some tunes just lay easier than others. Being able to sprinkle in that 1 5 3 (7) voicing anywhere and everywhere is quite a boon of this tuning, though.
 
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#25
have some other things in mind for right now. Working on a Red transcription of sorts. What better way than to imitate the master.

Funny thing i notice last night was that if I blindly move my hand lower to the next position as I go across the strings towards A, the embodied intelligence of 4ths tuning seems to know what to do. It's weird. So instead of playing directly across the strings like in 4ths tuning, I have to play diagonally (away toward the left from the players perspective).
 
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#26
Ok it's been over 2 weeks since I started embarking on this. I'm starting get the hang of it and the body is starting to norm to the new tuning. Still not ready to record but it'll be "soon".

If I were to start this all over again, these are things I would've done:

1. Geography
* Focus on scales, one string at a time, using open strings to create a drone. Learn the D scale on the D string, then the G scale on the D string. Repeat the same on the G string, then C string, then A string (or whatever order you choose in terms of strings). Then after a while you can start crossing strings.
** Initial set: D major scales, G major scales. This is to get used to the spacings and where the open strings resonate. G major scale being the most important of the two.
* Then work out C major scale to learn the physical positions on a 12 note scale.

The way I do scales is I do sets of 3 notes at a time from a major scale (which may have emanated from Barry Harris?):
- ascending up 3 notes, then next set of 3. GAB, ABC, BCD, CDE, etc. then down GAB (from 8va above), FGA, EFG, DEF, etc
- Reverse the set, BAG, CBA, DCB, EDC, etc.
- Alternate ascending 3, desdending 3, etc. GAB, CBA, BCD, EDC, etc.
- Alternate the above... descending then ascending. BAG, ABC, DCB, CDE, etc.

Bonus challenge is to do triads using the same patterned approach instead of scales.

2. iiVi workouts. Probably easiest done with a good "etude" standard like All the things. But here's the catch, work them all out in all 12 keys. IRealB really helpful for this stuff.

3. Bebop heads. My two favorite right now is two transcriptions I did for Red's "Jam For You Bread" and Pettifords "Laverne Walk". Esp the latter. So much bebop fun and guess what? Both songs are in G. Maybe you see a theme here?

If I were to start ALL OVER again even in 4ths tuning - i think this is my preferred way of doing things. Maybe with easier bebop heads.
 
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#27
Also, the other advantage I'm finding is that since there's such a larger spread up into the upper register, i don't reach for TP all that much anymore and finding myself playing comfortably seated like Red did. I had a battle with Frozen Shoulder a year ago and had to get PT to deal with it and i'm still not fully back to 100% but having turned 50 now I need to pay attention more to posture and tension for the long haul. I have my eye on maybe doing an angled endpin at some point but for now will try raising the bass height ala Gary Karr.

I think there's a little bit to be said about better shoulder/back health with 5ths tuning that is advantageous. Obviously this can also be mitigated in 4ths tuning but y'know... less is less.
 
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#28
I'm about 1.5 months in now with only a little practice everyday bc of day gig. The ear/hand coordination is starting to adjust naturally. I'm beginning to forget my old hand movements in 4ths as I attune to this new feel.

Comparing the act of soloing, I find 5ths easier if I play more with a triadic mindset. The way the notes lay onto the fingerboard, I find it easier to relatively stay in the same finger position since there's a little bit more range given the same hand position compared to 4ths obviously. I don't think it's signifcantly different than in 4ths but I like soloing using triads in 5ths more, like it feels like 1st inversions are easier to play in 5ths bc when you finish with the root note (3rd finger), you now can either reach up or down with the pinky or index. I start a lot of stuff on the 3rd with phrasing so I"m still outlining changes during my solo but without starting on root notes.

The thing that needed getting used to was playing the 5th of a chord since it involves going to the adjacent lower string and up a two steps. That used to be brain dead in 4ths but I prefer this as it keeps me tonally in place or lower in the register. 4ths had a tendency to always go up in pitch as i said before.

Been working through some transcriptions of Red's comping esp where he's using 10ths and 6ths. He's so eloquent and seemingly soloing when supposedly comping.
 
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#29
On a whim, I tuned my bass to 5ths yesterday. It's got a standard set of EP weichs on it. After an hour or two of playing, I've got the hang of the notes... I think. What I'm struggling to figure out is how the E... sorry, I mean "C" string is now much use to me. I mean, I often found myself avoiding the E string much of the time anyway, but with the new tuning it seems even less useful. I know the strings I've got don't help that, but even still. For pizz work, I've found the E almost intractable. For arco, it's okay, but it's an adjustment. I know a heavier string would help, but I'm thinking more in terms of pitch. I feeling like the GDA are the most useful strings now. I also feel like it's great for arco, but not much use for pizz. Am I missing something?

P.s. this is an experiment. I don't know if I can stump up US$200 for a B string to fix the tension issue and my 3/4 has never been amazing under low G anyway.
 
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#30
Some basses like heavier low C (like the Spiro low B tuned up 1/2 step). The RM Spiro 4/4 low C is excellent, too, and blends well with guts (and I assume EP).
 
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#32
Oh I’m sorry I misunderstood what you were asking. Hell yeah, though - I’m using the C string a ton. It’s a lovely tuning , but lot of music could be made with G D A E tuning without the low C, too. I end up grabbing that open low C a lot, though.
 
#34
It’ll come together with time, don’t sweat it. You start to see diagonal whole-step shifts between strings and all your lines, bags of tricks, and “buckets of schit” will come back to you. I keep the action real low on my Shen in this tuning and it’s super easy to play. I play a gut A and high E to mellow the top end. Spiro low B tuned up a half step on the bottom.
 
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#35
I've been on TB for years (although not always active), and I can't believe I never thought to look here for stuff related to playing in 5ths.

I'm back in 4ths now, but I was in 5ths for a few years. I've recently been thinking of going back to 5ths, because I miss it. The only reason I returned to 4ths was because after my 2nd kid was born and a career change, I didn't have enough time on a consistent basis for practising. But I loved playing in 5ths - I loved the sound, and the challenge.

I played cello before switching to bass in high school, and I studied with Joel Quarrington back in my classical days, so I had a good technical foundation and a good understanding of what was needed to play in 5ths. But I found applying it to jazz was much more of a challenge. 5ths are great for diatonic music, but more difficult for chromatic, in my experience. In general, I found that it made larger intervals easier but smaller intervals more difficult - which simply required a change of vocabulary.

I found it pretty easy to get the basics down, so that I could play most of the music I needed. But the most difficult part was improvising. It made me realize how much I relied on muscle memory! I eventually got to a decent level, but I never reached the point where I was as comfortable soloing as when I was in 4ths.

My practise method consisted mostly of scales and arpeggios in all keys, and practising bebop heads, along with comping and soloing, of course. I'm not sure if it was the most efficient, I would have liked more people to bounce ideas off of. If I decide to change back, I'll definitely post questions!
 
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#36


I’ve been focusing primarily on tune learning but my ding-dang technique keeps hanging me up so much that I’m about to pivot and shift to a deep dive ‘n into technical exercises to get over the roadblock…
 
#37
Had my first go of playing in 5ths at church this morning. I discovered during rehearsal that the E string tuned down is not effective for pizz. If I'm going to do this properly, I'll need to buy a B string. I've been enjoying it at home, but the PU won't properly produce the pitches effectively the with my current E string. The A-->G was okay, but the E is just too floppy. I ended up tuning back to 4ths between the rehearsal and the start of church.
 
#40
reverendrally said:
Hmm, I only just had these strings put on recently. And I REALLY love them for 4ths playing. Maybe I should shelve this for a couple of years til I need a string change.
Click to expand...
I'm not a 5ths player . . . but if I were remotely serious about it, I'd get shedding 5ths ASAP. Maybe you should shelve the strings for a couple of years. They'll be fine sitting for a good while, but your 5ths technique needs developing now.
 
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