I made a few maps with the new version and ended up using what has been my favorite since I got the box...one made with version 1.50. The maps made with 1.6 seem tinny to my ear. Did you use the same mic set up as before or something else? Any advice?
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Double Bass Audio Sprockets ToneDexter
- Thread starter jarrodtravis
- Start date
I just upgraded to V1.6 as well. I was looking forward to making some new WaveMaps with my REMIC green. I have the wireless version that terminates in the TA4F mini xlr. I’m using the Shure Beta preamp to plug it in to the TD. Same setup I use on the road to plug in to FOH without the wireless.
I got a less superior WM out of the bridge arch location, but then tried to make one using the tailpiece location and it freaked the unit right out. It would cut out, clip, distort, and generally make the unit non-functional. Horrifying noises through the headphones. I was worried themic Or cable was suspect, but I plugged it into the mixer I have on hand and listed with the same headphones and it sounded just fine.
Anyone else have issues with certain mic setups? Is it a lack of headroom on the TD mic in, or maybe something else? I’d love to know. I was looking forward to trying that out.
I’m still digging an older WM from a few versions back.
I got a less superior WM out of the bridge arch location, but then tried to make one using the tailpiece location and it freaked the unit right out. It would cut out, clip, distort, and generally make the unit non-functional. Horrifying noises through the headphones. I was worried themic Or cable was suspect, but I plugged it into the mixer I have on hand and listed with the same headphones and it sounded just fine.
Anyone else have issues with certain mic setups? Is it a lack of headroom on the TD mic in, or maybe something else? I’d love to know. I was looking forward to trying that out.
I’m still digging an older WM from a few versions back.
Did you train on a regular slot? The regular cutting frequencies algorithm cuts too much for me, while training on slot 22 mostly pizz and just a bit arco works just fine for me, everything but tinny.
About the remic, I can imagine it picks up some stuff that does not work for the tonedexter. Another issue might be the gain of your preamp. Try to listen to the mic sound after the level setting phase. The mic might clip and distort because of too much gain. The remic as a much hotter output under the tailpiece compared to the under the bridge location.
Generally speaking I guess the advice to use a flat sounding small condenser still makes sense, my latest wavemaps with an almost completely flat oktava mk 012 have been really nice and balanced, I used it on stage with pa and it was fine. I did not compare it to wavemaps I made with the previous firmware.
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Thanks. I'm going to try slot 22 tomorrow. I too have had best results with a mix of pizz and arco. I found with the new update the training is so fast that it's hard to cover the range of the bass from high to low. Do you do this, or just hang around in the middle register?
That’s a bit my suspicion too. Thanks for confirming. I was initially hoping the more direct sound of the REMIC green would be an interesting experiment. It doesn’t even get through the level set phase though, just chaos.
My best WaveMap is as you described. A good sounding condenser, a Josephson in my case. I need to grab that mic again and try with the new firmware. I’ve only ever been satisfied with training on slot 22. I just dial between CH 0 and CH 2 depending on the room. 1 always seems to be a bit disjointed sounding.
I'm using mostly a 1.50 WM, too, though I've got 1.53 installed. I'll be installing 1.60 and doing some all-pizz trainings to see how they sound, as I find the arco ones a little too bright anyway. Even if I stick with my favorite 1.50, I'm totally satisfied with the product. A true game-changer.
I always tried to cover the range, because the training ist so fast now that means for me one arpeggio pizz, another one arco, again pizz and the time is over.
Good question, how will it sound like if you stay in the middle register? Please try and tell us!
My general findings with training on slot 22: I like to put the mic centered in front of the bass, just a bit below the bridge. More focus and midrange when it looks towards the bridge, more huge bottom when it looks further downwards. A distance of about 12 inch is a good point to start, I do the same training again at 9 and 15 inch and see what I like better. I like to do just a bit of arco during training, but with a very soft and round sound. Good luck!
Another idea, could you use a passice mini xlr to regular xlr adapter to connect the remic? I guess the extra gain of your preamp is what makes the tonedexter unable to find proper gain settings. The remic green is a pretty flat sounding studio mic as far as I remember? That might worth a try!
I dont think the Remic Green is a suitable mic for the TD. It more like a contact mic (the main element is faced directly at the face of the bass. THe Remic Red makes really good WM's and is much more suitable. Looking forward to trying out the new version 1.6 when I get a chance
Ahh Remic Green is the live version and Red the studio version, sorry I mixed them up. Yes I also can´t imagine to get a useful wavemap from the live version.
Yeah. Well, at least I’ve proven that it was a horrible idea—haha—I thought it was maybe worth a try though. I’d love to find a red somewhere to play with for this purpose. They’re just not overly common, which is sad.
For clarification purposes, the preamp I mentioned is the Shure RPM626 barrel adapter. The wireless version of the REMIC green is only looking to see the bias voltage of the wireless pack and not true phantom. The 626 is the same barrel that is used in the older Beta mic family, which takes 48V phantom and powers the mic element, similar to the ATM350 or Pro 35 barrel. I just wanted to make sure that nobody was misunderstanding my post to think I was plugging the line out of a Fancy console mic pre into the Tone Dexter.
I have no idea what kind of gain (if any) the 626 in-line imparts, but it normally sounds fine through the any console. I was prepared for a bad, unusable WaveMap, but it was the seeming overload, clipping and general chaos that it imparted into the TD that caused my surprise. I’ve gotten up close and personal with an un-padded 414 (which in my experience is a fairly hot output mic) to attempt Wavemaps, without incident. So my last experiment was a bit of a head-scratcher. I’m assuming the auto-gain function on the mic in isn’t liking the level it’s seeing.
For clarification purposes, the preamp I mentioned is the Shure RPM626 barrel adapter. The wireless version of the REMIC green is only looking to see the bias voltage of the wireless pack and not true phantom. The 626 is the same barrel that is used in the older Beta mic family, which takes 48V phantom and powers the mic element, similar to the ATM350 or Pro 35 barrel. I just wanted to make sure that nobody was misunderstanding my post to think I was plugging the line out of a Fancy console mic pre into the Tone Dexter.
I have no idea what kind of gain (if any) the 626 in-line imparts, but it normally sounds fine through the any console. I was prepared for a bad, unusable WaveMap, but it was the seeming overload, clipping and general chaos that it imparted into the TD that caused my surprise. I’ve gotten up close and personal with an un-padded 414 (which in my experience is a fairly hot output mic) to attempt Wavemaps, without incident. So my last experiment was a bit of a head-scratcher. I’m assuming the auto-gain function on the mic in isn’t liking the level it’s seeing.
Thanks for all the advice. I did a long training session today - the only thing I dislike about the Dex is the time eating endless possibilities aspect. I ended up with a couple of maps that I like a lot in my living room. Both were made with my cheapest mic, line audio cm3, positioned sideways like a side address 5" and 2' from the F hole all Arco with slot 22 and v. 1.6. Go figure. Tried my go to expensive large condencer at various locations with all pizz and pizz-arco and nothing sounds as good. The gig tonight will tell the tale. I really do love this thing and so does everyone else. By that I mean fellow musicians, sound guys, recording engineers.
So I have had a chance to try out several new wavemaps made with v.1.60 in a variety of venues. All were made with an AMT 25b mic and a Full Circle pick-up on my mid-1800’s Tyrolean. I had been stuck on a wavemap made with v.1.50, which seemed to work very well in all situations. Wavemaps made with later versions did not seem as good as this one. All my useable wavemaps have been made using slots other than 22; any ones I made on 22 seemed way too “live.” With my preferred v.1.50 wavemap, I’ve been able to get a nice sound using about 90% mic + 10% pick-up, with a notch at about 103. The new wavemaps with v.1.60 were all made with the mic between 2 and 4 in. from the top, on the treble side either directly over the f hole or between the f hole and the bridge; either all arco or all pizzicato. In general, I’ve found that the volume level of these new v.1.60 wavemaps is somewhat lower than my preferred 1.50 map, and also somewhat more midrange focused and less boomy. The sound seems tighter in the the lower register and clearer in the upper register, esp. in thumb position. I think I prefer these new wavemaps to my previous 1.50 go to, as the bass seems to sit more comfortably in its own defined space in the mix of other instruments without necessarily being louder. My new go to seems to be a wavemap made all pizzicato with the mic placed about 4 in. from the top over the treble side f hole.
On a related note, it always amazes me how our ear adjusts to new sounds as a new normal. Before I got the Tonedexter, I thought I was getting a nice sound just from the Full Circle. After using the Tonedexter for a while, when I’d go back to the Full Circle I’d find it hard to believe that I used to think it sounded good! Since using these new 1.60 wavemaps, I can’t believe how boomy my previous v.1.50 go to wavemap sounds! I’m very interested to hear what the Sarno Black Box will do to these sounds once my turn comes around on the TB Black Box trial.
On a related note, it always amazes me how our ear adjusts to new sounds as a new normal. Before I got the Tonedexter, I thought I was getting a nice sound just from the Full Circle. After using the Tonedexter for a while, when I’d go back to the Full Circle I’d find it hard to believe that I used to think it sounded good! Since using these new 1.60 wavemaps, I can’t believe how boomy my previous v.1.50 go to wavemap sounds! I’m very interested to hear what the Sarno Black Box will do to these sounds once my turn comes around on the TB Black Box trial.
Are you pointing directly at the f hole, or angling toward the bass of the bridge? BTW, I totally agree with you about how our ears adjust to the new "normal". I can't believe how thin pickup-only sounds.
The mic is pointing directly towards the f hole.
This would be incredibly boomy with my bass and training on slot 22. Two different approaches seem to lead to useful results:
for a very acoustic and mic like sound training on slot 22 with a linear mic in a position wich sounds balanced, especially not to boomy or hissy, seems to work best. Mic choice, mic placement and training method (pizz/arco) are crucial.
For a more focused sound training on a regular slot seems to work fine, but the mic should be placed in front of an f-hole, otherwise the result might be too thin. Training like this might be easier, because the underlying algorithm cuts out the extremes, I guess mic choice and training method is not that crucial.
I need to try a regular slot again on a boomy mic position...
I just got my ToneDexter this week. I ordered it before everything got locked down, with the full expectation of using it on some gigs right away, but now there's no great urgency in getting it dialed in since there are no gigs on the immediate horizon, and that horizon seems to be moving as I write this. Regardless, I thought I'd share my experiences so far.
My bass is a 3/4 sized Pfretzschner carved instrument, set up primarily for jazz, with Spirochore reds and a Full Circle.
I was able to easily download the bass-specific firmware (V 1.62) and load it into the unit.
Training went pretty easily, and I found the manual to be very useful without being overly complex.
Using slot 22, I used my Advanced Audio CM 67 large condenser mic aimed at the end of the fingerboard about 8" away, which is exactly how I record the bass in my home studio. On the first training pass I bowed almost all the way through, but on a subsequent pass I played pizz only and that seemed to produce a more balanced result (the arco pass had a bit of harsh high end for some reason). I tried another training pass with the mic halfway between the bridge and the treble side F hole, about 10" away and aiming slightly toward the bridge (with the same mic), which is how I've occasionally had success recording the bass for a rounder and deeper sound. The ToneDexter didn't seem to like that position as much - it was way too bottom heavy and somewhat lacking in presence.
To see how it sounded through an amp, I plugged the ToneDexter into the rig that I've been mostly using for upright these days: a Demeter Minnie 800D, which is Class D power amp (no tone controls, only output level), into a Bill Jenkins 112 cabinet. It sounded pretty good right away, though I had to back off the bass control on the ToneDexter to about 9:00 to get the amount of definition that sounded right, at least in the room I was in. The CH0 (focused mic) Character setting on the ToneDexter sounded the best to me. Comparing the ToneDexter to the raw pickup signal was startling, mostly in how honky and artificial the pickup sounded in comparison.
Out of curiosity, the next day I did a training pass with my DPA 4099B mic, aiming dead center between the F holes about 2" above the bridge, which is the position that seems to work best on my bass. It sounded pretty good, maybe lacking in the mic-like natural stringiness of the CM 67 wave map, but definitely more focused. I'll have to wait to see what works better in a live context, and I'm sure I'll do a lot more tweaking in the meantime.
My bass is a 3/4 sized Pfretzschner carved instrument, set up primarily for jazz, with Spirochore reds and a Full Circle.
I was able to easily download the bass-specific firmware (V 1.62) and load it into the unit.
Training went pretty easily, and I found the manual to be very useful without being overly complex.
Using slot 22, I used my Advanced Audio CM 67 large condenser mic aimed at the end of the fingerboard about 8" away, which is exactly how I record the bass in my home studio. On the first training pass I bowed almost all the way through, but on a subsequent pass I played pizz only and that seemed to produce a more balanced result (the arco pass had a bit of harsh high end for some reason). I tried another training pass with the mic halfway between the bridge and the treble side F hole, about 10" away and aiming slightly toward the bridge (with the same mic), which is how I've occasionally had success recording the bass for a rounder and deeper sound. The ToneDexter didn't seem to like that position as much - it was way too bottom heavy and somewhat lacking in presence.
To see how it sounded through an amp, I plugged the ToneDexter into the rig that I've been mostly using for upright these days: a Demeter Minnie 800D, which is Class D power amp (no tone controls, only output level), into a Bill Jenkins 112 cabinet. It sounded pretty good right away, though I had to back off the bass control on the ToneDexter to about 9:00 to get the amount of definition that sounded right, at least in the room I was in. The CH0 (focused mic) Character setting on the ToneDexter sounded the best to me. Comparing the ToneDexter to the raw pickup signal was startling, mostly in how honky and artificial the pickup sounded in comparison.
Out of curiosity, the next day I did a training pass with my DPA 4099B mic, aiming dead center between the F holes about 2" above the bridge, which is the position that seems to work best on my bass. It sounded pretty good, maybe lacking in the mic-like natural stringiness of the CM 67 wave map, but definitely more focused. I'll have to wait to see what works better in a live context, and I'm sure I'll do a lot more tweaking in the meantime.
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