3. I didn’t argue otherwise.
If you’re curious about my viewpoint there, read post #8. I was just chatting here.
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Banter between songs and iPads
- Thread starter htown098
- Start date
If you’re curious about my viewpoint there, read post #8. I was just chatting here.
Regardless of how great a guy he is, I could not put up with that kind of "loose cannon" behavior.
Intentional or not, from your description it's having a negative impact. I used to have an IT client who was just as you describe: A great guy overall, but ADD beyond belief. He was a chaos generator and made life far more difficult for everyone he worked with.
The obvious reading of lyrics or charts would only be acceptable with brand new band members or subs.
Our guideline was "no dead air". Unless this became unavoidable due to technical difficulties, any banter was to occur over intros/outros.
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I'm with you on having ADD loose cannon clients...as well as smartest person in the room clients, lazy clients, and all other types of fun clients. I've spent the last 30 years trying to perfect the art of ...as mentioned...try to create the conditions by which people convince themselves to do the right thing for the sake of the team. It's uhhhhh...not easy as I'm sure you know. There are no perfect solutions of course...only trade offs. I'm going to do my level best to same page everyone at the next few rehearsals ... we have 3 gigs coming up ... third gig will either be the charm or I just may punt. What sucks is he is a genuinely good / nice guy ... I just can't handle putting in the prep work during my free time to have him go ham when it's go time. As others have mentioned ....it's probably too baked in and he can't change. We shall see.....!
Ipad no issue, banter working the crowd while someone is fixing something or changing guitars no issue. As for anyone bother by the ipad no one from the crowd has ever mention it. And they are the only ones opinions that count since we are there entertainment. Pros use scrolling lyrics on strange that look like floor wedges whatever gets you there.
I fired the client I mentioned. Nice guy or not, his chaotic and irresponsible behavior ended up presenting way too much potential downside .
I don't maintain relationships with people who need me to convince them, or create conditions in which they convince themselves, to do the right thing.
I realize that this isn't always an immediate option for bandleaders with working bands.
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De nada.
- Reading lyrics off a tablet? Only in rare exceptions when playing a request that someone's tipped well for. a) It says the singer doesn't care enough about the audience to learn the song; b) It blocks the singer from connecting with the audience; c) It makes the audience feel like they're intruding on somebody who'd rather have their head buried in their tablet than engage with them; d) It's generally a bad look that screams "amateur hour".
- Rules for banter and transitions? There are none. You're either good at it or not.
- The main band I work with has a BL who banters a lot of corny stuff between songs. He's got a lifetime of experience with it, he's good at it and he packs rooms where we play. He also mixes in quick transitions without banter - He's not oblivious and knows how to read and play the room (he was a state record holding high school track & field coach and teacher all his life).
- I've also been playing professionally for 50 years and am reasonably good at it when appropriate.
- In your words, the guitar player in your band is oblivious. He may come around eventually since he's apparently not afraid to talk to large groups, but IME that's generally a 5-12 year learning curve from where he's currently at. I've also seen some who never improve, and some who actually get worse. Does he sing lead on most of your songs? If so, insisting on quick transitions with no banter on at least four out of five songs is probably going to be as good a work-around as any.
Also it helps to get everyone to see band expectations as extensions of mutually agreed upon personal boundaries. This way you get a better buy-in. Also, if someone doesn't meet expectations, there's less resentment and more resolve to do what's necessary, such as giving a warning, then replacing that person.
Since your guitar player's regular "rearrangement" of songs points to him not taking the time to memorize them, here's a good example of a mutually agreed upon personal boundary: "My/our time is valuable, especially time spent learning the songs at home in order to be prepared for rehearsal. I/we will not accept behavior that doesn't share this value for my/our time. Learn/memorize the f****** material."
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1. As the singer - the rule is NEVER! we have to memorize all the notes, you memorize your words. That is your job. This is not a 100+ random call out solo acoustic deal.
2. We like to do 3-4 in a row before anyone pauses. 12-14 songs a set; If there is an instrument change, there SHOULD be banter. Interaction/audience engagement is a good thing. Transition between songs should be as fast as possible. We rehearse sets of songs as a block with zero transition.
I get the whole "no banter people" their attitude is I'm here to play! But the audience is there to "have a good time and be entertained" and that includes interaction. Watch any pro concert - guys what in 90 minutes there is banter.
What an interesting situation.
I have NEVER been in a band that used Ipads, note books or anything else. We practice until we know the songs in and out and the band leader literally on the fly chooses a song to play based off how the crowd reacted to the previous song. Also, besides initially saying hello and calling intermission or saying thank you and good night , there was never any talking.
I haven't seem a lot of talkative bands. Aaron Lewis is likely the most talkative singer I've seen live and I dont mind cause , well, it's Aaron Lewis. Usually he will say something like , this song is from a band I used to be in. He never mentions STAIN'D , EVER. Sometimes he will tell little stories about how the songs came about or dedicates certian songs to certian people amd thays about it. I don't mind him talking.
Now that I'm thinking about it, there was a band I saw play with avenge sevenfold. They were kind of annoyingly talkative. I can't remember their name though. Wait. Shine Down. They talked too darn much.
Anyway. I feel for your pain, but I'm also REALLY glad I never had to experience this. All my previous band leaders were tyrants, and while that sounds awful, it made things run VERY smoothly.
I have NEVER been in a band that used Ipads, note books or anything else. We practice until we know the songs in and out and the band leader literally on the fly chooses a song to play based off how the crowd reacted to the previous song. Also, besides initially saying hello and calling intermission or saying thank you and good night , there was never any talking.
I haven't seem a lot of talkative bands. Aaron Lewis is likely the most talkative singer I've seen live and I dont mind cause , well, it's Aaron Lewis. Usually he will say something like , this song is from a band I used to be in. He never mentions STAIN'D , EVER. Sometimes he will tell little stories about how the songs came about or dedicates certian songs to certian people amd thays about it. I don't mind him talking.
Now that I'm thinking about it, there was a band I saw play with avenge sevenfold. They were kind of annoyingly talkative. I can't remember their name though. Wait. Shine Down. They talked too darn much.
Anyway. I feel for your pain, but I'm also REALLY glad I never had to experience this. All my previous band leaders were tyrants, and while that sounds awful, it made things run VERY smoothly.
As a lead singing bass player, who's played all kinds of genres in all kinds of settings:
1. There are times I'll use a device (or old fashioned paper) as unobtrusively as possible, mostly as a cheat sheet for lyrics. But I always still try to memorize as much as possible.
Nothing annoys me more than watching a singer stare at their pad, binder, whatever. Yet, that seems to be widely accepted these days.
2. The blanket rule "no space between songs" is, IMO...STUPID. It ONLY applies for dance gigs, where your job is to keep people dancing and drinking. Yes, there: bang bang bang, one song after another. But many of us play gigs where people actually LISTEN, and need to be drawn (invited) into the magic space you create with each piece of music. That often requires words. Yes.
Audiences like and need a break, some talk, some ENGAGEMENT from the musicians on stage. Otherwise, they can, and should, hire a DJ rather than live humans playing and singing.
1. There are times I'll use a device (or old fashioned paper) as unobtrusively as possible, mostly as a cheat sheet for lyrics. But I always still try to memorize as much as possible.
Nothing annoys me more than watching a singer stare at their pad, binder, whatever. Yet, that seems to be widely accepted these days.
2. The blanket rule "no space between songs" is, IMO...STUPID. It ONLY applies for dance gigs, where your job is to keep people dancing and drinking. Yes, there: bang bang bang, one song after another. But many of us play gigs where people actually LISTEN, and need to be drawn (invited) into the magic space you create with each piece of music. That often requires words. Yes.
Audiences like and need a break, some talk, some ENGAGEMENT from the musicians on stage. Otherwise, they can, and should, hire a DJ rather than live humans playing and singing.
Yep, not one for such hard and fast rules...I'd rather feel it and expect a front man to be able to do that as much as I'd expect a band member to emphasise with the track they are playing.
Otherwise, tracks and robots kill music.
Getting there though...with people singing off phones at Jams and singing autotune-style.
Getting out of the habit of actually listening to music...but if that becomes a norm, then the artiste becomes premium.
Otherwise, tracks and robots kill music.
Getting there though...with people singing off phones at Jams and singing autotune-style.
Getting out of the habit of actually listening to music...but if that becomes a norm, then the artiste becomes premium.
I've too have seen it work extremely well both ways - most blanket rules don't work for all bands.
My current main band has a lot of talk and audience engagement from the BL and drummer who also sings. BL sometimes tells home-spun stories and jokes; The audience loves it, and he packs the monthly venues we play - one books up reservations on our night two weeks in advance.
Same goes for a weekly house band I host on Tuesdays. I engage people directly - most are regular live music fans I've gotten to know over the years, some will heckle good naturedly, which I love because it tells me they feel welcome and "part of the act" . Also, I like to heckle hecklers.
OTOH, I have a friend who's BL of a non stop, no-space-between songs band - They do extremely well, playing high-end rooms for top scale, even on a weekly, week night gig in a popular yuppie high density urban neighborhood. They've worked their a**** off and earned a great following.
I've done thousands of folkie singer/songwriter gigs, and if the people in THAT audience get the rapid fire song-to-song performance, they feel cheated. They want to hear all about the songwriter's motivation for writing each song, etc. And if any syllable of any sung word is drowned out by an instrument, they're likely to walk out and demand a refund! IME. They're very, very focused on the words, and don't want to feel like they're being played *at.*
A quick note about tablets vs. paper: In one of my current bands (non-folk), I'm the only one who uses paper, and also the only one who's immediately ready for each song. I put my charts in set list order on my music stand, and simply flip to the next one when we end a song. Meanwhile, the fancy iPad users are scrolling through directories! I sing lead on a handful of songs, and memorize those, so I won't be staring at anything. The charts that I do look at generally have written parts (standard notation-- black dots).
A quick note about tablets vs. paper: In one of my current bands (non-folk), I'm the only one who uses paper, and also the only one who's immediately ready for each song. I put my charts in set list order on my music stand, and simply flip to the next one when we end a song. Meanwhile, the fancy iPad users are scrolling through directories! I sing lead on a handful of songs, and memorize those, so I won't be staring at anything. The charts that I do look at generally have written parts (standard notation-- black dots).
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A quick note about tablets vs. paper: In one of my current bands (non-folk), I'm the only one who uses paper, and also the only one who's immediately ready for each song. I put my charts in set list order on my music stand, and simply flip to the next one when we end a song. Meanwhile, the fancy iPad users are scrolling through directories! I sing lead on a handful of songs, and memorize those, so I won't be staring at anything. The charts that I do look at generally have written parts (standard notation-- black dots).
That's a user issue. I have charts on my ipad in setlist order, iPad mounted on mic stand a little above waist level, and use a bluetooth footswitch. Not only am I ready for the next song before the current one is over, no one ever sees me touch the iPad (because I don't).
It seems, to me at least, that nobody is committing stuff to memory much anymore. Between computers and phones we don't have to and we've not kept that "muscle" in shape. Every phone number, address, driving direction, etc... used to be memorized. We, generally speaking, don't do that anymore and learning/memorizing music is no different. Just my two.
Memory aids are fine, but they're supposed to be just that: aids. If you're reading off the page constantly then your performance will suffer as you are adding an extra step for your brain to work around.
That goes for sheet music as much as it does lyrics - yes, classical orchestras will have the music but players are still expected to rehearse and memorise to familiarity. Look at all the videos of soloists who lose the sheets halfway through and still land the piece. I've done reading gigs but can say that none of them were as fluent as ones where I had the material fluently memorised and could play around the form.
That goes for sheet music as much as it does lyrics - yes, classical orchestras will have the music but players are still expected to rehearse and memorise to familiarity. Look at all the videos of soloists who lose the sheets halfway through and still land the piece. I've done reading gigs but can say that none of them were as fluent as ones where I had the material fluently memorised and could play around the form.
Ipads - yep. I want one as I occaisionlly space a lyric. I sing 60 plus but maybe 6 a gug. Not generally the same 6 so ot helps. While I'm in The song, I almost never look. Just a quick refresh ahead of time of necessary.
Banter. Banter is fine if it is natural and fits the scenario well. If it's too off kilter then no. I like to deliver whatever I do over a vamp. One thing it accomplishes is to advertise to the danciing crowd what the beat is and gets them time to hit the floor... We do a lot of short songs and it is kind of annoying to have folks hit the floor about the time we're going to wrap...
Over the progression to John Prine's In a Town This Size, I might say "The original presentation of this was more or less a funeral dirge. Not a tune you'd play if there were a bottle of whiskey and a loaded revolver in the house. We decided that it makes a better pop 'grass tune. And then launch."
Over the intro to Wilco's Pasenger Side. "Everybody lokes a song with a message. The message in this tune is, Don't be that guy!"
My sense of humor isn't for everybody but it seems to fit our crowd...
If no one else will, I'll banter over the event, venue, wine (we play a ton of wineries), the weather... whatever comes to mind that seems to fit while the guitarist is tuning - he tunes a lot... we do many songs with alternate tunings, many others with Capo and I hate dead air.
In my rock band, we end a song and start counting in the next. Lead vocalist adds some banter in every 4 songs or so. Honestly, people need a break now and again or it becomes an assault. If on the other hand thr dance floor is full, we'll keep it that way.
For me the key is... banter can't sound forced, it needs to feel natural and it has ro have something to do with something that the audience can relate to. ..and there really can't be too much of it.
Banter. Banter is fine if it is natural and fits the scenario well. If it's too off kilter then no. I like to deliver whatever I do over a vamp. One thing it accomplishes is to advertise to the danciing crowd what the beat is and gets them time to hit the floor... We do a lot of short songs and it is kind of annoying to have folks hit the floor about the time we're going to wrap...
Over the progression to John Prine's In a Town This Size, I might say "The original presentation of this was more or less a funeral dirge. Not a tune you'd play if there were a bottle of whiskey and a loaded revolver in the house. We decided that it makes a better pop 'grass tune. And then launch."
Over the intro to Wilco's Pasenger Side. "Everybody lokes a song with a message. The message in this tune is, Don't be that guy!"
My sense of humor isn't for everybody but it seems to fit our crowd...
If no one else will, I'll banter over the event, venue, wine (we play a ton of wineries), the weather... whatever comes to mind that seems to fit while the guitarist is tuning - he tunes a lot... we do many songs with alternate tunings, many others with Capo and I hate dead air.
In my rock band, we end a song and start counting in the next. Lead vocalist adds some banter in every 4 songs or so. Honestly, people need a break now and again or it becomes an assault. If on the other hand thr dance floor is full, we'll keep it that way.
For me the key is... banter can't sound forced, it needs to feel natural and it has ro have something to do with something that the audience can relate to. ..and there really can't be too much of it.
This is the way.
Also, unless you're singing the same 40-50 songs, a tablet is fine. I don't expect anyone to have the several hundred songs in our repertoire memorized word for word with total recall. A quick glance between verses to refresh your memory is fine. If the big name bands can use teleprompters as a safety net for lyrics they wrote, surely us weekend warriors can use a tablet. The key is not to be glued to it. I'd venture to guess most against the use of a tablet don't sing lead all night and/or don't switch up the bulk of their setlist regularly.
