Challenges related to Custom Boutique basses and builders?

[Bass Viking]

The biggest disappointments with custom builders tend to happen with the ones who let their customers spec everything. Often the customer doesn't know what works and what doesn't, so they make a laundry list of lousy combinations that end up being a dud after the build is done. The best custom builder experiences seem to be the ones who do their thing, and keep the options to a minimum.

Agreed. If I was going for a custom I would rely on the builder’s knowledge and experience to advise me what options would get me the sound and feel I’m after. A good builder will have some limits on what they will do because they don’t want to have their name attached to an instrument that just doesn’t work.

 

[lordradish]

The thing I hate most about boutique basses and builders.

None of the builders are giving me their basses

Finally, some legit hate.

 

[lordradish]

Source? I can't find that quote anywhere, and it actually doesn't sound like the sort of thing Leo would say, or is this one of those post-truth-era quotes that's legit because you read it somewhere unattributed?

The biggest disappointments with custom builders tend to happen with the ones who let their customers spec everything. Often the customer doesn't know what works and what doesn't, so they make a laundry list of lousy combinations that end up being a dud after the build is done. The best custom builder experiences seem to be the ones who do their thing, and keep the options to a minimum.

I'd have to respectfully disagree, somewhat. When I'm going to a luthier, I'm not just paying him for his craftsmanship. I'm paying him for his expertise, too. All of the choices were mine, based on the research I did, I presented them, and he would tell me if that was the best option to go with for what I wanted. Some of my choices were not the best options, I followed the advice, and I'm glad I did. A lot of great, experienced players simply might not know a lot about the tech side of the instrument, so that's a good reason to make sure you have a knowledgable luthier.

 

[lordradish]

The thing is, you probably -can- but you just don’t know it.

That’s how I got into my first one…. I didn’t think I could afford it and then I talked to a few builders and realized it was not so bad. At all. Of course it depends on the build…. But don’t assume it is outrageous right out of the gate.

my .02…. You don’t have to be loaded. I’m middle-aged with 3 daughters and an ex wife so I don’t have unlimited budget….

I agree. You don't need to spend Wal/Fodera prices to get something quality. All of my non-Wals were between 3 and 4k, and totally worth it (the Wal was 1500, but that was 20 years ago - no way in hell I could afford one today).

 

[micguy]

I hope you feed him well and let him out for walks once in a while.

He walks every day, and he’s well fed.

 

[FullumMusic]

Hello everyone,
I'm trying to understand major challenges within the Custom Boutique Bass and Guitar industry. I'm a bass player and custom guitar enthusiast.

-- For customers: What complaints do you have regarding small custom guitar builders/ companies? Any bad experiences?

-- For Builders: What’s the number one (or two) problem you have working in the industry? I’m talking about something that drives you (or customers) crazy or takes A LOT of your time.

For example, problems hiring qualified people, Marketing, warehouse space, equipment (faulty or lack thereof), long lead times.

I believe your insights could be really valuable.
I’d love to identify the biggest problems and see if/how I can help small builders to solve it.
Thank you!

"Hate" is a strong word. But, it's kinda annoying how hard it is to actually play a boutique or custom build before buying. Basses might look amazing, and might be built to the highest standard by the best luthiers, but every bass is different, and no matter how well it's built and how great the components are, and no matter how great they sound when reviewers and pros play them in youtube vids, none of that matters until i feel the bass in my own hands and hear it under my own fingers. There's always the risk when ordering a boutique or custom bass that it arrives and you're like, "Wow, this is an amazing bass and i kinda don't like it for myself."

I understand this would be completely unfeasible, but it would be great if there was a way to demo a selection of builds from a small builder before ordering what i think i want from them. Being able to actually feel and hear how their different options play in my hands would make dropping all that money less of a crapshoot. Most small builders really don't have the bandwidth to keep a vast demo inventory in their shop. And even if they did, you'd have to travel from wherever you are to wherever their shop is.

Would be cool if there was a smaller version of a traveling NAMM/Mannheim type thing open to the public. We'd be able to actually put our hands on instruments before buying. Of course, this is also economically not realistic. But would be cool.

Although, it could actually be a good thing when i think of all the money i didn't spend by not being able to pick up amazing basses and fall in love with them and then buy them. That's how i bought my Olinto P. I played one in their shop, obsessed over how much i loved it, and within 2 weeks was back in the shop ordering one. But back to my initial point, the whole reason i ordered it was because i was able to play one first, and feel it and hear it, and talk to them about what mine would have and how it would be similar/different to the one on the wall. It's really hard to pull the trigger on spending several thousand dollars on a bass i've only seen on the internet.

Even just going on the reviews and builder reputations is tough. People LOVE Fenders, and i've yet to play one i love. I've played ones i've liked, but never one i felt "Wow, i want this" about, including the vintage ones from great years. So all the positive reviews and reputations doesn't necessarily translate to me liking the bass when i get it. The flip side is, i ordered a fretless Maruszczyk Frog sight-unseen, on reputation alone, and it exceeded my expectations. So... yeah. {Shrugs}

 

[blr2]

I played several luthier instruments, but never ordered one myself. However, about 12 years ago I commissioned a custom made tube bass amp, that I still have and play to this day. I made my research beforehand, and knew exactly what I wanted. The person I worked with was very pleased about that, and commented that it had made this project easier for him, which he reflected on the end price. Just an example about communication and knowing what you want.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

One of the primary problems with any boutique builder is that customers don’t want to pay what they actually cost to make in real dollar terms. Are you willing to work for what amounts to minimum wage? Nope. But unless a builder can automate large parts of a build using CNC, or assemble from pre-made parts, it’s tough to make any money doing it, and is a bass that’s more than 50% CNC made still “boutique”? What does that even mean?. TB is replete with Tales of Woe on custom builds gone wrong. Very few builders can successfully make the jump to full time building, most have to supplement their income with a second job, or do a lot of repair work. I have great admiration for anyone that can pull this off, an alchemic combination of artistry and hard-nosed business sense I know I lack as an amateur builder. I love building basses for myself, my son, and a couple close friends, but have no illusions about how hard it is to make a profitable business out if it, particularly when it’s possible to buy a perfectly playable, well made bass for under $500 these days.

 

[Slacking Zac]

That's the 3rd time today that I hear something about the horrible communication that some builders have with their customers. Sounds like a total disrespect, many times.
I also hear the same from builders: Wealthy middle aged men who exchange emails for hours and hours, arranging details of a custom bass, and then they say that it is not the right time to buy.
Bad communication is the norm, rather than the exception, from what I've heard.

I had a small business, not building basses, but doing forestry and ecological restoration projects. 100% spot on with my lived experience.

I could tell who was going to complain at the end just by how they were about the whole process. They're rich, so in the beginning the sky is the limit. You tell the the pro's & con's, and they agree. Then, the emails start. "Actually, was talking to my wife and I decided [complete opposite thing]." Personal stories, hour-long phone calls, etc, and my personal favorite, complaining about other vendors or contractors and telling you all about what they put that guy through.

Finally, the time comes and it is done, and it both took too long and nothing is how they wanted it. Naturally, because they switched horses five times mid-stream. So now they don't think they should have to pay, at least not full price.

 

[perfektspace6]

-- For customers: What complaints do you have regarding small custom guitar builders/ companies? Any bad experiences?

The part about having no idea what the instrument will actually sound like. And also all the horror stories, even if rare, that I hear. I have a pretty solid and narrow idea of what I like at this point and could probably commission a build that would get me something I really enjoyed.

However, I have never done a custom build. Seen way too many people order the bass of their dreams and then have it up for sale on TB a few months after delivery. Also, the wait time for the best luthiers can be years and I am probably not going to do that when there are so many great used basses out there at any given time.

 

[micguy]

Leo Fender has been quoted saying: "If I have $ 100 budget to build an instrument, I'd put $ 99 in functionality, and $ 1 in looks". No one can argue that this has been the wining formula for 75 years now. With custom and boutique builders, it is often more like 60% looks and 40 % function, or at least these are my impressions. The instruments are gorgeous to look at, but at the moment you pick them up, they don't feel and sound so great.

You really haven't played many custom or boutique instruments. Fender is a factory - nobody spends a second more doing anything that what's needed to make a serviceable instrument. They do a good job overall, but little details? not so much.

With a competent small builder, the thing you are getting is that he is going to be staring at the same bass for a LOT of hours, and any little detail that he doesn't want out in the world (that a factory would never even see, much less be passionate about doing right) is going to be addressed.

 

[blr2]

With a competent small builder, the thing you are getting is the he is going to be staring at the same bass for a LOT of hours, and any little detail that he doesn't want out in the world (that a factory would never even see, much less be [passionate about doing right) is going to be addressed.

I agree. The question for me is how much of this meticulous attention to detail translates to user experience, actually playing the bass, not just starring at it for hours.

 

[micguy]

I agree. The question for me is how much of this meticulous attention to detail translates to user experience, actually playing the bass, not just starring at it for hours.

With a good builder, that stuff will translate well, with a poor one....

I do a lot of work on basses for other folks in my "scene", and even doing mods or repairs, there are times when I will walk away from the thing I'm working on, and realize "hey, if I...." - I will come up with a better way to address a problem, or realize that the way I did (or was going to do) something isn't quite optimal. Then I go and redo something, so that it's done right. I have the time because this isn't a job; it's something I do as a passion to help others. If I were working in a factory, the instrument would likely be out of my hands long before I had a chance to think about it. If you do something as a passion, the hours translate to better details. If you're on a schedule, and thinking about something else, the hours may not mean anything.

 

[BTL]

Does this means your basses can be tried before buying ?

Yes, of course, if you're local. I do have a return policy on Reverb as well, so that's always an option, but return shipping is at the buyer's expense. That said, I don't recall ever having an instrument returned.

I build what I like, and when it's ready, I put it up for sale.

I love the way that sounds.

Thanks! It's taken 100% of the stress out of the business for me.

 

[Jim C]

I have found that some custom builders are great craftsman but horrible business people.
My two complaints are:
* Impossible for them to predict construction time. I was quoted 6 months and after a year it turned out nothing had been done. Had to get my deposit back.
* Inability to think outside of the box when it comes to pups & preamps. The idea that everything has to be a F. clone is just limited thinking on a custom bass.

 

[BuddhaFingas]

1. What you want doesn't exist on the market. Maybe you want an unusual scale length (more common today than 20 years ago), uncommon electronics, or very specific dimensions that nobody produces en mass. For example, my 30" 5-string tenor bass with 2 magnetic pups, a piezo bridge, and a dozen control knobs/switches. You can't find that at Guitar Center.

You mean, like a decent well-finished left-handed bass in a color other than black, white, or burst?

 

[GreyBeard]

As a builder, I have followed the same path a number of familiar and respected brands have followed: 100% US-sourced materials and services, vintage-spec neck pockets, best in class hardware and electronics, and a unique set of design features that differentiate my work in the market.

The biggest challenges I face are:

• Brand awareness and recognition
• Post-Covid supply-chain challenges
• Consumer acceptance of my design choices
• Extended lead times that prevent me from taking custom orders

Because of these constraints, I build what I like, and when it's ready, I put it up for sale.

That said, I have found a couple of niche markets where I'm the only game in town (32" scale conversion necks and 8 & 10-string bridges), and I'm using the success I've had in those segments to strengthen my approach to complete builds.

I'm hoping for a breakthrough in 2024 and beyond.

Hang in there

 

[BTL]

Hang in there

That's the plan...I'm in this for the long-term.

 

[Bass4ThePublic]

I love boutique basses. They give you the option to really do anything. You want a neck through P bass with a t bird pickup in the bridge and an ovation magnum pickup in the neck? Boutique. You want a hand made instrument that actually looks like it had love and care put into it? Boutique.


What I DO find however is besides people like Joe Riggio, 99% of boutique builders SUCK at relicing. Sorry not sorry

 

[burgerdj]

Apart from the inflammatory click-bait title…I think you mean, “What are the challenges confronted by custom bass builders and their clients?”