Crazy, crazy guitar/bass ideas - prototypes

[wagdog]

I've always loved P basses because of their minimalistic design. They are about as complicated as a brick, the embodiment of form follows function.

 

[reverendrally]

I've always loved P basses because of their minimalistic design. They are about as complicated as a brick, the embodiment of form follows function.

I'd actually beg to differ there. By the time we get to what we know as a P-bass (ie. not the 51'), the P bass was actually a pretty complex design. Cutaways, roundovers and reliefs, humbucking PU and inline headstock design. Heck, even the pickguard is pretty complex. Absolute minimalism is the snakehead tele.

1 piece neck, 2 or 3 piece body. Hardly any routing. Heck the edges of the body are almost square. We'd consider it something a teenager could easily build in highschool woodwork class. Yet it worked well enough to be developed into the Tele we know.

 

[Rôckhewer]

Hang on just a tic here Rev..
So this statement....

You, on the other hand, are looking to use superior and excessive engineering to make the frame of the bass participate in the sound, bringing in rich tonal qualities that you can't get from rigid planks of wood with pickups. You are crossing over into the other side of bass building, where only the brave Luthiers venture

Doesn't sound like it really applies....
Because here, you say....

In the end I decided an electric guitar is made up of "Three Planks" (that's my trademark, like I'll ever had time to develop it, haha). 1 Neck and 2 body wings. No great surprises there, but how you put it all together is the trick I guess.

So... it doesn't seem like there would be many options to do much of anything differently, as far as the fundamental components/ parts of a guitar are concerned....if you plan to stick with this basic simplistic concept of... "3 planks...(neck & 2 body wings)". But only cobbled together ...unconventionally

 

[Bruce Johnson]

Reverandrally is still sorting out his concept. Give him some time, and he'll cross the bridge.

Leo was the founder and leader of the whole idea that an electric bass was a plank of wood with pickups. He designed his basses with the intention that the wood frame would be consistent, cheap to build, and have almost nothing to do with the sound. It needed to be comfortable to play, cool looking and easy to manufacture by the millions. The sound was supposed to be the job of the pickups and the amps. That was his goal. But, as musicians began learning how to use these new-fangled electric basses, they began hearing more detail in the sound character, that wasn't just from the pickups and amps. Other manufacturers, like Gibson, Rickenbacker and Ampeg, were experimenting with innovative pickups and innovative frame construction to get different sounds. But for decades, Fender stuck with the principle that their bass necks and bodies were slabs of wood. Variants were done for comfort and style. Design was all about manufacturing efficiency, and wood was chosen for cost and availability; occasionally for weight or look. And Fender still has that overall philosophy today. Fender has many fine Luthiers in their Custom Shop, who know how to get better tone out of the wood frames, and they build some wonderful instruments. But the vast majority of Fender's product lines are designed to be dumb planks of wood with pickups. That's how they successfully brought electric basses to the masses.

 

[reverendrally]

Hang on just a tic here Rev..

So... it doesn't seem like there would be many options to do much of anything differently, as far as the fundamental components/ parts of a guitar are concerned....if you plan to stick with this basic simplistic concept of... "3 planks...(neck & 2 body wings)". But only cobbled together ...unconventionally

Yes, yes and no. Sort of... Sorry there isn't more detail than that at the moment but let me say this. Even Leo's planks didn't stay plank shaped.

 

[Mark Wybierala]

"How can you build a bolt on bass without a neck pocket?"

You can use a washtub. The neck is a shovel handle and there are no bolts.

Any bass worth building needs to be a bass that you can drive to the gig with and play with a certain amount of confidence that its going to play as well as the last time you played it. You could probably chisel away the sides of a neck pocket on a P-Bass and it still would function -- it just wouldn't be as durable or dependable and it wouldn't look very nice. You can actually bolt a neck to a 2X4 with no neck pocket and with a little bit of barn yard ingenuity make a playable bass. But there is more going on with Leo's bass design than meets the eye. The contours of the body make it settle in a good comfortable place when you sit and play it. The upper horn extends the location of the strap button so the bass hangs from the strap in a relatively balanced way leaving the left hand free to maximize dexterity. The lower bout sits comfortably under your right forearm and combined with the overall width of the lower bout establishes the roll control making it easier to play. The neck pocket allows the instrument to be quite thin instead of needing to take up a lot of space as would be necessary with a conventional dovetail heel joint. The whole bass is built around economy of materials and simple, easy, and fast to manufacture. I see nothing about a P-Bass that is over engineered if you're going to use the bass to play as most bass players employ the instrument. However, if your exploring new genres of musics or wanting to generate bass tones in a different manner, there are no rules

 

[Rôckhewer]

Hang on just a tic here Rev..
So this statement.

You, on the other hand, are looking to use superior and excessive engineering to make the frame of the bass participate in the sound, bringing in rich tonal qualities that you can't get from rigid planks of wood with pickups. You are crossing over into the other side of bass building, where only the brave Luthiers venture

Doesn't sound like it really applies....
Because here, you say....

In the end I decided an electric guitar is made up of "Three Planks" (that's my trademark, like I'll ever had time to develop it, haha). 1 Neck and 2 body wings. No great surprises there, but how you put it all together is the trick I guess.

So... it doesn't seem like there would be many options to do much of anything differently, as far as the fundamental components/ parts of a guitar are concerned....if you plan to stick with this basic simplistic concept of... "3 planks...(neck & 2 body wings)". But only cobbled together ...unconventionally44=
Where does this

Yes, yes and no. Sort of... Sorry there isn't more detail than that at the moment but let me say this. Even Leo's planks didn't stay plank shaped.

And I wasn't trying to be hyper critical....
Just trying to follow along & figure out where you were trying to go with this.

 

[reverendrally]

^ I know and I started this discussion to have a vigorous debate about these things.

To some extent, the future of music as we know is in the balance at the moment. Pretty much the only constants in the whole of music are computers, human voices and the acoustic guitar. Everything else is either stagnating or changing drastically. What we do with stringed instruments will influence the production of that music in ways we can't even envisage at the moment. So, really throwing things out into the wind and debating new and dangerous designs is important. The great thing about this forum is, it's a safe place to do that without being crucified by traditionalists or the twitterati.

Keep slamming the ideas around. I personally hope every one of you goes back into their shed and dreams up something even crazier than what I'm planning.

 

[reverendrally]

But there is more going on with Leo's bass design than meets the eye.

Amen. And yet the design is incredibly simple in many ways. It's amazing industrial design.

 

[ctmullins]

Subbed. Got a few ideas of my own, but this is your thread, and your ideas are probably better than mine.

 

[reverendrally]

Good news. It seems I don't have to replace the turbo on my car. Yay!

So that opens up my workshop space for crazy guitar building again. Last night I started clamping up trial bits.

I think I'm on the right track, but I might need slightly thicker steel.

 

[tlc1976]

Bolt to the top of the body and bolt additional block risers to mount the bridge and pickups to get them up to a height that will work with the elevated neck.

That leaves a grand canyon under the strings. Yay! No more nail marks!

The pickups could be mounted on rails for placement in any position. To find the best sounding spot(s). I've been thinking of a clean way to do that lately anyway.

 

[reverendrally]

Right, so tomorrow is my day off. In the shed I have...

Neck/tuners/nut
Timber for a body
Bridge
Strings
Several PUs to choose from
Metal (ie. steel, not heavy metal music)

My wife is going out all day. So by tomorrow arvo (Australian for "afternoon"), I should have a working prototype! Pics along the way.

P.s. Please excuse the fact it's a 6 string piccolo bass, not a regular one.

 

[T_Bone_TL]

P.s. Please excuse the fact it's a 6 string piccolo bass, not a regular one.

It's a prototype, so you're excused. I have a whacky acoustic bass idea I'm thinking of trying out with some defunct violin parts, if I can ever put the time together to try it out at all.

 

[reverendrally]

So it's G day, or is that B day or L day? Anyhow, I hit the shed and started pulling bits out. I have a large crate of metal cut offs, because I don't throw any decents offcuts out. You can never tell when you need the bits.

I ended up with a piece of steel and a few bits of aluma-cheese (very soft aluminium). So then I started marking things out and drilling holes.

I made up a simple tailpiece with some aluma-cheese angle.

 

[reverendrally]

So I stuck it all together with a few screws.

I was planning to put some aluminium under the bridge, but the gap is narrow I didn't bother.

The 2 strings are just on there to try and get the bridge in the right spot. The bridge isn't screwed down. It's floating at this point, but that might change. I may even move the tailpiece further down the body further. The next trick is to put a PU and a full set of string on it. You might also notice the bridge saddle. I dodged that up out of a scrap of aluma-cheese. Once I've got all that sorted, I'll start doing other stupid things.

 

[I-Am-The-Slime]

Stupid like a fox!

 

[reverendrally]

I put a proper set of strings on it and moved the tailpiece way down the body. It's strung up to tension. Here's a pic of it next to my last build.

The first thing I have to say is this. It's about double the acoustic volume of the electric on the right. Bear in mind, the electric is extensively chambered and I'd consider it pretty lightweight. So straight up I'd say I've had a win and that the stiffness of the body has been compromised in a helpful way. I think the next port of call is to get out my jigsaw (gasp) and chop it into a more playable shape. It's pretty unwieldy as is.

 

[reverendrally]

Just a word on the ridiculous neck joint you see before you. You'll notice I've moved the mounting screws as close to the edges as possible. There's a reason for this. What I'm trying to do is capitalize on the strength of the steel in "sheer". Steel is known for a high strength in this configuration. By getting my mounting screws close to the edge of the timber members and as far apart as possible, I end up with a long steel cross section with as little "bending moment" as possible. As a consequence, the steel is hardly working. In fact, I'm pretty confident I'll be able to add some speed holes later to reduce the weight of the place, without losing it's stiffness.

BTW, I've shared all this in the hope people will think outside the box. However, if anyone plans to use it to commercially build guitars just remember the interwebs will demonstrate it's my intellectual property. Please don't be a jerk about it. Contact me and we'll sort something out.

 

[I-Am-The-Slime]

Fun idea! How about a V- or U-shaped neck plate extending into the wings?