Very good friend of mine who works as a backline tech for Echo and the Bunnymen recommended the Palmer to me. Problem is my SVT is 300W so that looks like a no-go unfortunately.
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DI box between amp and cab
- Thread starter andykeating
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Very good friend of mine who works as a backline tech for Echo and the Bunnymen recommended the Palmer to me. Problem is my SVT is 300W so that looks like a no-go unfortunately.
Well, if he's anything like me, he probably just got to bed about now (12:40pm)!It's 4:30am in Florida. Maybe after he has his,coffee, we'll get him in here.
Hi all
I recently posted a thread about alternatives to using the Balanced Out from my SVT for live sound. My preference is to use a DI box between my amp and my cabinet. I'm 95% on settled on getting a Countryman 85. I've debated getting a JDX-48, but think that it might be better going for a box without a speaker simulation, plus it doesn't give me the option of using it as an instrument DI if necessary. I'd also debated getting an RNDI but the only power source is phantom, and even though its very unlikely, I don't want to turn up to a show and the desk not be capable of providing phantom power. Anyhow, I digress, I just have few questions before I buy a box...
1) Am I right in saying that speaker cables need to be used from the amp to DI box, then from the box to cab?
2) For people who have used the Countryman in this scenario, will I need to change my EQ settings much? ie, will I need to take some treble out, because the box doesn't have roll-off like speakers do?
3) Finally, can anyone steer me away from the Countryman at the last minute and give me some more food for thought on DI boxes?
Thanks in advance
I've had a Countryman Type 85 in my gig bag for about 8 years. To be honest, I don't use it a ton, but do use it. Rock solid, sound guys are always happy to see it, it works good / sounds good, and it can be run a few different ways. I got it back in the day when I was gigging with a '77 Bassman 100, which had no output options, so I did the speaker level thing. Did the EQ sound bad? I don't know, cuz I couldn't hear... thats the rub with the whole FOH thing.
Don't worry about the phantom power thing. If the place can't provide phantom power, then you got other things going on. However, keep a 9V in your countryman and change it out every year, or keep a 9v and little screw driver in your gig bag, and problem solved. No experience with the JDX, but the external power and no instrument DI is two strikes. The RNDI looks very nice, but it a bit more $$.
To your questions...
1. Yes
2. No. Make your amp sound good on stage to you. You take care of playing the bass on stage, and FOH will take care of the sound in the FOH.
3. The countryman is a solid choice. I think even if you change up down the road, owning a rock solid, industry standard piece of equipment that can serve a couple different functions is never a bad thing.
Not necessarily. If you connect the amp to a Type 85 and connect the Type 85 to your speaker, you are simply connecting the speaker and DI in parallel. No need to put the DI in the middle, as there are likely to be multiple ways to make a parallel connection.
The DI does not have to be connected to the speaker at all. For example, connecting amp to DI and amp to speaker works unless you have an old SVT with switching speaker jacks instead of an impedance switch.
You could also put the speaker in the middle. I.E. Connect the amp to speaker, and then connect the speaker to DI.
As long as the connection is parallel and the amp is configured for the proper speaker load, you're good.
You should set your amp to get a stage sound that suits your needs. IMHO, If you want the audience to hear the same sound, the most accurate way to capture it is with a mic. PA speakers and DIs like the Countryman are relatively flat. The frequency response of the Ampeg 810 is extremely unflat, as it rolls off the lows and highs, so basically what goes into the speaker and what comes out are drastically different.
The way a speaker level DI sounds unnatural will depend upon how much drive you use, and the way you EQ the amp. But in relation to your 810E, the DI will always have more low bass and a lot more highs. The contour of the mids will also be a lot different. If you boost the highs and push your SVT to get a bit of grind with the 810E, you may find this sounds harsh and buzzy in a flat, speaker level DI.
Some people prefer to use a DI with a built in speaker sim, are at least an LPF. One thing a speaker sim does is apply high pass and low pass filtering to somewhat mimic the frequency response of a speaker. But all speakers have a unique response curve. IMHO, a speaker sim is useful, but will not authentically capture the sound of your speaker unless the sim is designed specifically to emulate an Ampeg 810E. Keep in mind, many speaker sims are designed to emulate guitar speakers.
Another thing to consider, since each speaker sim colors the sound in a different and unique way, there is a bit of a learning curve to figure out how to dial each one in. So if you always use the same tech and mixing board, maybe a speaker sim would be a good choice. If you frequently use different techs and PAs...maybe not.
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Hi all
I recently posted a thread about alternatives to using the Balanced Out from my SVT for live sound. My preference is to use a DI box between my amp and my cabinet. I'm 95% on settled on getting a Countryman 85. I've debated getting a JDX-48, but think that it might be better going for a box without a speaker simulation, plus it doesn't give me the option of using it as an instrument DI if necessary. I'd also debated getting an RNDI but the only power source is phantom, and even though its very unlikely, I don't want to turn up to a show and the desk not be capable of providing phantom power. Anyhow, I digress, I just have few questions before I buy a box...
1) Am I right in saying that speaker cables need to be used from the amp to DI box, then from the box to cab?
2) For people who have used the Countryman in this scenario, will I need to change my EQ settings much? ie, will I need to take some treble out, because the box doesn't have roll-off like speakers do?
3) Finally, can anyone steer me away from the Countryman at the last minute and give me some more food for thought on DI boxes?
Thanks in advance
I have a JDI, JDX-48, and Countryman T85, and I've tried them all at speaker level with my Verellen Meatsmoke and with lower-wattage tube heads as well. JDX and JDI are my preference for this use because of the speaker sim.
1) Yes.
2) The Countryman does not provide any frequency tailoring or "cab sim" roll off of any kind. So when used off the speaker output, it can sound pretty rough (tin can full of bees, if you use any overdrive in your sound). If you trust your sound guy, then he can / should be tailoring that signal at the board to sound good in FOH. If you don't, then maybe the Radial JDX-48, with built in cab sim, would be a better choice.
3) The plain ol' Radial JDI can also be used in this fashion, is totally passive, and has speaker sim built in only when you engage the Speaker Level pad. When you turn off the pad, the speaker sim is disengaged, so you can still use it as a regular DI box too.
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EDITED/DELETED my original post, because I realized I was wrong. The In/Thru on the JDI is a parallel connection.
I'd still suggest using speaker cables though.
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Per the manual, the JDI is designed to work as a speaker level DI, but it's not completely clear it can handle the voltage an SVT develops. Although I am almost certain it can, I would contact Radial to make sure before I bought one for this purpose. The manual lists the max input as only 21dBu. Perhaps the actual spec is 51dBu, which would be entirely sufficient.
Also the speaker emulation is basically a band-pass filter designed to mimic a 12" guitar speaker. Unfortunately, I can't find a response curve or specs that show the upper and lower knee of the pass band. Perhaps it would be good to ask Radial about this as well.
The JDI is one of my favorite DIs...to use with keyboards. Keep in mind the JDI Duplex trades out the speaker level DI/speaker emulation feature for other functionality.
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No argument. I've never used it with an SVT, only with my Meatsmoke which I didn't have turned up very loud and may or may not have had set at 100W output. Comments from the soundguy included "best bass tone I've ever heard", and "wish we'd used that tone on your album" though, so it definitely "works" for this purpose.
JDX-48 is ok at 300W though, I'm 99% certain of that.
Sorry but this is not a series connection.
The Instrument and AMP connectors of the Type 85" are in parallel. The input connector is switched to turn the Type 85 on.
For confirmation read the second QA in the attached FAQ.
If the connectors were in series it wouldn't work because the Type 85 has an input impedance of 10MOhms. Put 10MOhms in series with a 4 ohm speaker and you essentially have a 10MOhm loud. Put 10MOhms in parallel with a 4 ohm speaker and you essentially have a four ohm load.
I do agree about using a speaker cable though.
Yeah I realized that shortly after and went back and "fixed" my original post.
You ever notice that a majority of SVTs you see at big shows all have a DI sitting on top and maybe a mic on the cab? For one big reason, what sounds good on stage could sound like dog out front. Then they EQ the eq’ed signal which in turn looses your SVT character. If you just use a mic to blend in some SVT with a clean DI you’ll actually get a better SVT sound then if you actually do what you’re suggesting. I’ve gotten spiel for many sound guys.
yeah but i also noticed that i never enjoy the bass tones at said big shows. i'd take a small sweaty club and a mic'd cab any day
LOL, I'm not worried about instrument DI, because I have a VT-RM!
And yes, it was a wonderful piece of kit to record with.
But, I know full well that the engineer used a cab simulator plugin, and A/Bing the raw track compared to the track with the emulation, I just found the latter, more pleasing. Yeah, it probably doesn't translate as well live, but I do like my toys!
I use the 85 when I do it, but any of them will work. Yes, use speaker cables. And I do like having speaker simulation as long as it's not for guitar. Sorry it took so long today, but I do have a life, sort of.
Hi all
I recently posted a thread about alternatives to using the Balanced Out from my SVT for live sound. My preference is to use a DI box between my amp and my cabinet. I'm 95% on settled on getting a Countryman 85. I've debated getting a JDX-48, but think that it might be better going for a box without a speaker simulation, plus it doesn't give me the option of using it as an instrument DI if necessary. I'd also debated getting an RNDI but the only power source is phantom, and even though its very unlikely, I don't want to turn up to a show and the desk not be capable of providing phantom power. Anyhow, I digress, I just have few questions before I buy a box...
1) Am I right in saying that speaker cables need to be used from the amp to DI box, then from the box to cab?
2) For people who have used the Countryman in this scenario, will I need to change my EQ settings much? ie, will I need to take some treble out, because the box doesn't have roll-off like speakers do?
3) Finally, can anyone steer me away from the Countryman at the last minute and give me some more food for thought on DI boxes?
Thanks in advance
I’m going to assume if you are concerned about a DI, you must be working with FOH PA. If you are trying to duplicate the sound coming out of your cab, fed into the PA, and expect it to come out the same in the house will take an awful amount of work, regardless of how you feed it to the PA. Keep in mind, your cab plays a significant part of “your sound”, and tapping a feed from between your amp and speaker, will not guarantee the same result.
Am I missing something here?
The Radial speaker sim is based on a 4x12 guitar cab.
Sounds poopiee with bass.
Hit the Countryman and let your soundguy fit it into the mix.
Sounds poopiee with bass.
Hit the Countryman and let your soundguy fit it into the mix.
I used to use a JDI as a speaker DI for this when I had a big heavy all tube meat smoke. bass> pedalboard> head> Cab > JDI (via parallel output)> FOH.
JeezyMcNuggles
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If you plug into the box, then run into your amp, you'll have a signal for the house, and an input for your amp. No problems at all. If your amp has an effects loop and/or pwr send/return, you can try it there too. Then you'd get a dirty signal to the house, instead of a clean one. But, the vast majority of engineers send the clean signal when they plug you in instead of the dirty anyway. It makes them in control of your sound, so that they can mix you properly. But, a good microphone (as someone suggested) is probably the best route though. Then you'll get your true sound to the house. Cabinet included. But, on your question, I almost guarantee that plugging the output of your amp, into your box is a no go. It sounds to me like you'll way overload the signal into the box (distorted as hell) and not have near enough volume coming out for your cabinet. But, that's just my thoughts on that. I've never tried it that way. I run my DI through my effects loop. But, it's a sansamp...a pre amp pedal. It has a DI built in. I plug into the pedal, then I run it into my effect return. Skipping my amps preamp. If I'm not using my pedal, then I just use the built in DI from my amp.
There are several DIs designed specifically to work with speaker level signals. The Countryman Type 85 has a 40dB pad to knock the level down and will not distort until you hit it with about 1,700 watts. The device will actually handle 300Vpp which is equivalent to 2,800 watts at 4 ohms. The input impedance is 10Meg ohms so your amp won't even notice the extra load. The only concern is you can't use a speaker level DI with amps that are operating in bridge mode, which includes many Class D amps.