Digital Mixer - Odd Venue Issue

#44
Mike Caldwell said:
Both mixers are balanced line level out.
When you said you had no output when directly connected as in no buzz, hum, distorted audio at all?

Maybe the wall jack lines have phantom power on them and the Ui24 outputs did not like getting hit with that and the Mackie has better DC blocking on the XLR outputs....again a big guess.
I'm assuming both mixers are using true differential balanced outputs, if one is not that could be an issue on miss wired wall jack input lines.

What's on the other end of the wall jack lines is anyone guess, good, bad or ugly!!
To be safe when I need to plug into a house system unless I truly know that system I will always use isolation transformers, sometimes there needed just for grounding noise issues anyway.
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BAG said:
I really want to know the answer to this one.....
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We were back at the same venue and I tried the line isolators and it did not help. Once again, no sound when connecting straight from my Soundcraft Ui24R (I tried using both the mains out and an AUX out). There is signal and when troubleshooting and connecting directly to an active speaker, it worked just fine.

I connecting it once again through their Mackie system as an intermediary and it then worked.

I know other bands have used their systems direct.

Is it possible that their XLR's are wired different and my unit doesn't play friendly with it?
 
#45
Ok I just re read your post and deleted what I just posted!

So connecting direct to the wall jacks with your mixer does not work?
Connecting through their Mackie mixer and the system will work?

Are they using the XLR outputs on the Mackie mixer? If so did you try unplugging those cables from the Mackie mixer and plugging those into your mixer?
The XLR outs on the Mackie and on your mixer are the same.

With the Mackie in place and the system working what is the signal showing on the Mackie?
 
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#46
Mike Caldwell said:
Ok I just re read your post and deleted what I just posted!

So connecting direct to the wall jacks with your mixer does not work?
Connecting through their Mackie mixer and the system will work?

Are they using the XLR outputs on the Mackie mixer? If so did you try unplugging those cables from the Mackie mixer and plugging those into your mixer?
The XLR outs on the Mackie and on your mixer are the same.

With the Mackie in place and the system working what is the signal showing on the Mackie?
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Yes, we're using the Mackie XLR mains outs.

I've done all the troubleshooting I can possibly think of:
- Tested the cables
- Make sure nothing is muted and the levels are up
- Ensure my unit is giving a signal (put it to a active speaker and got sound)
- Tried using an AUX out instead of the mains out on my unit

Everything works as should, except when sending it to the house connection. It really is baffling.
 
#49
Smallmouth_Bass said:
I used my cables. When I piggy-backed through their mixer I used mine as well (and the same ones) and it worked, so I don't think the cables are the issue. They are standard XLR cables.
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What I was asking did you unplug their cables from the Mackie and take those cables to your XLR outputs on the Ui mixer?

This a stretch of a guess but maybe the XLR inputs to their system are wired wrong in one of a many possible ways and to correct that they wired up their cables to work with their system inputs.

Knowing what is on the other side of their input jacks would be interesting and or scary!

The installation behind those jacks could be fully pro system or a bunch of home theater equipment installed by someones friend of a friend who knows a DJ.

People trying to help but shouldn't are good for service call business!
In walked into an installation where all the mic input jacks where Speakon connectors and they had a handfull of XLR to Speakon adapter cables!!!!!
 
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#50
Mike Caldwell said:
What I was asking did you unplug their cables from the Mackie and take those cables to your XLR outputs on the Ui mixer?

This a stretch of a guess but maybe the XLR inputs to their system are wired wrong in one of a many possible ways and to correct that they wired up their cables to work with their system inputs.

Knowing what is on the other side of their input jacks would be interesting and or scary!

The installation behind those jacks could be fully pro system or a bunch of home theater equipment installed by someones friend of a friend who knows a DJ.

People trying to help but shouldn't are good for service call business!
In walked into an installation where all the mic input jacks where Speakon connectors and they had a handfull of XLR to Speakon adapter cables!!!!!
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They don't have any XLR cables available, so the bands provide them.

That was the one thing that I was wondering; if the house stage hookups had some sort-of funky wiring. Probably, but then I wonder why the setup through the intermediary analogue mixer would work.

Thanks for the help by the way. I know it's hard to troubleshoot a system you cannot see. I can't even do it with it in front of me!
 
#51
Mike Caldwell said:
This a stretch of a guess but maybe the XLR inputs to their system are wired wrong in one of a many possible ways and to correct that they wired up their cables to work with their system inputs.
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I feel like this very well may be the issue. If the house mixer works using the house cables, the cables probably correct for incorrect infrastructure wiring. Next time, maybe try using the cables that connect the house mixer's main output to the infrastructure wiring with your mixer's main outs.
 
#52
dalahorse said:
I feel like this very well may be the issue. If the house mixer works using the house cables, the cables probably correct for incorrect infrastructure wiring. Next time, maybe try using the cables that connect the house mixer's main output to the infrastructure wiring with your mixer's main outs.
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They don't supply any cables! Given all the other troubleshooting, this would be a solid next step. I just don't see how it's possible given the same cables work when going through their mixer as an intermediary and not when I go direct.
 
#53
I understand that they don't supply cables. But - in the name of diagnostics - just take their cables off their house mixer and hook them up to yours for testing purposes. If the signal path works, then they probably have cables with non-standard pinouts to correct for their non-standard house wiring. You could even take a multi-meter to the venue and do continuity tests between the input and output sides of the cables to see how they map out.
 
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#55
dalahorse said:
I understand that they don't supply cables. But - in the name of diagnostics - just take their cables off their house mixer and hook them up to yours for testing purposes. If the signal path works, then they probably have cables with non-standard pinouts to correct for their non-standard house wiring. You could even take a multi-meter to the venue and do continuity tests between the input and output sides of the cables to see how they map out.
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Mike Caldwell said:
I assume they supply the cables between the their Mackie mixer and jacks on the wall.
Those two cables are what we are talking about using to connect to your mixers XLR outputs, unplug from the Mackie and plug into your mixer.

The XLR outputs on their Mackie supply the same kind of analog audio that the XLR output connectors on your Soundcraft Ui does.
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They do not supply any cables at all. Only the power cable to the Mackie mixer.

So knowing that we had to piggyback systems, we tried two other small mini-mixers last evening (a Behrninger and another Mackie) and they also did not work. We ended up having to haul out their big Mackie board again.

I did also post on the SoundCraft message board and user TAICHEE had this troubleshooting advice to offer, which could be useful:

"As a possibility, the venue system input is "pin3 HOT" unbalancing.

Ui24R's balance out is "Impedance balance". Only the pin2 has the signal then pin3 does not. That Mackie had the signal on both of pin2 and pin3 because it has a right meaning balance circuit.

Venue system could use only pin3 signal although the phase is inverted. ( Not sure it is the system's specification or mistaking to wireling. Some brands like Carver, Crest uses pin3 hot but there is no reason to use unbalance wireling for their XLR input. Even if it was pin2 balance input, same problem happens by pin2 short or cut at the sysytem input. )
Anyway this situation makes sound can be played from Mackie but not from Ui24R.

If you had a phase resverse cable, try it once.
It's easy to make if you didn't have.

Pin1----Pin1
Pin2----Pin3
Pin3----Pin2
Mark the connector "INV" or "Φ"."

I see that Hosa sells a phase reverse coupler for about $15. I will try this the next time we play there. Otherwise, we'll just go with the piggyback setup.
 
#56
According to the specs the Ui has fully balanced output, that said I have a Ui16 that I will be checking, I don't have a Ui 24 handy.
A system input that is wired pin 3 + and pin 2 - is not actually unbalanced and will work with a balanced source that is pin 2 + and pin 3 -.
Though if pin 3 is the only one connected on their wall jacks and the Ui is impedance balanced then yes that will be an issue, kind of goes back to my thoughts on the installation.
 
#57
Update.....Let's assume the Ui16 and the Ui24 have the same output configuration.
Just checked, the main Left Right outputs are indeed full differential balanced outputs. The aux outputs are impedance balanced outputs as in no audio signal on pin 3, measuring across pin 1 and pin 3 it looks like pin 3 is tied to ground through 100 ohm resistor.
I would hope the larger full featured Ui24 at least follows the Ui16 output config.
Now were kind of back to wondering what's going on.


Boring history time.....The Soundcraft Ui mixers started life as the SM Pro UMix. Soundcraft / Harmon bought them out and changed the I/O some and added Lexicon based effects.
 
#58
Mike Caldwell said:
Update.....Let's assume the Ui16 and the Ui24 have the same output configuration.
Just checked, the main Left Right outputs are indeed full differential balanced outputs. The aux outputs are impedance balanced outputs as in no audio signal on pin 3, measuring across pin 1 and pin 3 it looks like pin 3 is tied to ground through 100 ohm resistor.
I would hope the larger full featured Ui24 at least follows the Ui16 output config.
Now were kind of back to wondering what's going on.


Boring history time.....The Soundcraft Ui mixers started life as the SM Pro UMix. Soundcraft / Harmon bought them out and changed the I/O some and added Lexicon based effects.
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So does that mean the phase reverse coupler should (in theory) work if their hookup needs an audio signal on pin 3?
 
#59
Smallmouth_Bass said:
So does that mean the phase reverse coupler should (in theory) work if their hookup needs an audio signal on pin 3?
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It wouldn't hurt to try!
Even if they only have pin 2 or pin 3 connected on the wall plate connecting a fully balanced audio feed to it would work at least to the point of getting sound.
If they have fully balanced inputs wired to the plate but have pin 2 wired - and pin 3 wired + that would still work, the entire phase of the system would be filpped and you most likely would never notice.

Here's yet another possible installation error that could cause a big issue, If they have one wall plate wired pin 2 +, pin 3 - and the other plate is wired pin 2 -, pin 3 + and then in some way they are summing those two inputs to mono to feed the system around the bar that right there could cause almost 100% phase cancellation of the audio.
Try just plugging into one of the wall plates and see what happens.
 
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#60
Mike Caldwell said:
It wouldn't hurt to try!
Even if they only have pin 2 or pin 3 connected on the wall plate connecting a fully balanced audio feed to it would work at least to the point of getting sound.
If they have fully balanced inputs wired to the plate but have pin 2 wired - and pin 3 wired + that would still work, the entire phase of the system would be filpped and you most likely would never notice.

Here's yet another possible installation error that could cause a big issue, If they have one wall plate wired pin 2 +, pin 3 - and the other plate is wired pin 2 -, pin 3 + and then in some way they are summing those two inputs to mono to feed the system around the bar that right there could cause almost 100% phase cancellation of the audio.
Try just plugging into one of the wall plates and see what happens.
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Well, apparently one of them is not working so that's what we did the other night piggy-backing through their Mackie (just went into one). I don't know how stereo works when they have so many satellite speakers around the bar. Maybe it is all going to mono. We're all going mono. Only the guitar has the possibility to go stereo anyway.

They have a stack of power amps in the DJ booth room. I didn't see the models or count them, but they were behind a partially see-through curtain stacked about 5 feet tall. All the speakers seemed to be working with the one hookup.
 
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