Ron is the poster boy for smooth quarter notes! Accenting in different places per the demands of the music is much different from accenting 2 and 4. Note placement is a subtle and more musical way to swing than overt note dynamics.
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Double Bass Do you emphasize 2 & 4 while walking in 4?
- Thread starter Tom Lane
- Start date
After writing the post above I remembered a long talk with Walter Booker when I asked him about this very thing. Some folks, strangely, don't know his work. He had serious credentials. My favorite recording is Sonny Rollins's Alfie. At the time I was playing duo with his wife, Bertha Hope, and he would sometimes check us out and I would pump his brain on breaks. He was playing with Nat Adderly's band at the time, which was after Cannon had died and was the same band with Vincent Herring on alto, and whatever you might think of Nat's cornet, it was one the swingingest rhythm sections I've ever heard. He insisted that the strongest beat in a great section was beat one. He was ambivalent about using a metronome, like several great bassists I've known, but said that if you must use it, put it on beat one. He pointed out the when the band has time problems and talks about it on a break, do you ever hear someone say they couldn't find the 2, 3, or 4? "Man, I just couldn't find the 4 when you did that on the bridge."
Accents here & there are fine. Hearing the 3 at the same time as the 4 will help PLACE your quarter a better. However, a clean even line will imply swing and the other players push and pull against it will make it so.
Nonsense with the metronome on other beats is going to draw out the process and muddy the waters.
Nonsense with the metronome on other beats is going to draw out the process and muddy the waters.
Ra Kalam Moses also says 1 is the strongest. I think at the level Walter was working at going to work was better than any metronome - his experience can't really apply to the rest of us. I had a lesson scheduled with him years ago, JD Parran was bringing him to the West Coast. He never made it so it didn't happen. The two most swinging drummers I've played with Moses & Alvin Fielder were not into metronomes. They both enjoyed playing with me & I use it. I don't over use it. I just check in with it usually once a day.
I'd be curious to know what is the pedagogical intentions those teacher where aiming for. There is a few things I can think of they where trying to explain but just couldn't clearly tell you.
- First thing I though is, maybe the note choice you are doing may not highlight the line or may not be moving the bass melody in the desired destination?
- Then I wondered, maybe your quarter note are note even especially on 2 and 4 beat?
- Maybe they are not matching with the drummer hi-hat?
- Could it be that they can't hear your note on these beat?
- Is the drummer putting too much emphasis and is too loud?
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
Yes. He's quite good. Similar to Joey Barron or Adam Nussbaum. Excellent technique and time. Maybe not a national star, not sure. His control reminds me of Jeff Hamilton. But I recently got to play briefly with Mike Hyman who, I'd say is much more creative.
Can you ask him (respectfully) to suggest a recorded example of an iconic jazz bassist who plays the "emphasizing 2 & 4" approach?
This would be most helpful to the discussion here.
Thanks.
So, two things:
1) an update: I saw this teacher again today and asked him why he made that comment and said he just thinks a subtle accent on 2 & 4 helps a slow tune - 105 bpm - groove a bit better and he preceeded to demonstrate on his ride cymbal, and I'd have to agree that his subtle accents did sound better to me.
2) I think it's pretty clear from the responses - I should have done this question as a poll - that this a personal choice, as are all things in music and art and different people have different strategies and preferences and there's room for all.
3) (I know, I said two but I thought of a third) as the majority of those responding have written, this is context dependent. The most important thing is what feels good in the moment. If it's good, try to make it better. If it's bad, try not to make it worse, and then try to make it better.
4) LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN, and then open your ears wider still.
1) an update: I saw this teacher again today and asked him why he made that comment and said he just thinks a subtle accent on 2 & 4 helps a slow tune - 105 bpm - groove a bit better and he preceeded to demonstrate on his ride cymbal, and I'd have to agree that his subtle accents did sound better to me.
2) I think it's pretty clear from the responses - I should have done this question as a poll - that this a personal choice, as are all things in music and art and different people have different strategies and preferences and there's room for all.
3) (I know, I said two but I thought of a third) as the majority of those responding have written, this is context dependent. The most important thing is what feels good in the moment. If it's good, try to make it better. If it's bad, try not to make it worse, and then try to make it better.
4) LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN, and then open your ears wider still.
That's a good idea. I'll try. I probably won't see him tomorrow but if I do, he's very responsive and eager to share. Not a lazy ****. Honestly, whether he's right or wrong, I appreciate him sending me down this rabbit hole. It became clear to me this week that the players I aspire to have more nuance, more control, and more devices than I do, and superior technique, but, in the past year, and actually, every year, I've developed too, so, if I live long enough, I might get there. I like to practice.
One guy kicked my poopie - in a kind way - when I played a C on one when he was expecting a G. He was expecting a G- and I played a C7. I think of them as roughly interchangeable but now I know better, especially with two measures of G-. He not only heard my C on 1, but identified it as a C while he was playing, and remembered exactly where he heard it. That's a bleeding superpower! I would have heard the C and forgot about it. His level of detail is orders of magnitude deeper than mine.
If you want to call making something groove instead of swing a personal choice, you sort of can - but not really. The fundamentals of walking bass are not really that varied. There are ways of putting a spin on it, but the basics are clear, even quarters. As @Don Kasper says, show us an example of an iconic bassist accenting on 2&4 consistently.
Even a stopped clock is correct twice a day! Am I right?
Thanks, Tom.
I've acknowledged your good ideas before! Only MOST of them suck wind!
No, I always give your comments serious consideration because I respect your training and experience and I'd be a fool NOT to listen to your advice. We don't always artistically agree but I think that's a good thing. It means that we're both artists and bring our personalities to our music, but we're not the same people. Not everyone has that. Some lucky few bring that passion to their work too, but not many, IME. I think if we're talking about painting, you're more of a realist and I'm more Degas. I like more fuzzy borders. OTOH, this week I've been schooled better about when that's appropriate and when it's not and found that I was taking liberties that weren't mine to take. So, score one for you in that regard. But, until now, I didn't know. That's why I study and work with teachers more experienced than me; to improve.
I'm really considered by some to be more of a House Painter...
Thanks for the reply, Tom.
Have "fun" at your workshop.
I think you all are missing the point.
If you can't find one with a metronome on two and four you are in deep trouble. This is beginner stuff. Some people have to practice it. If someone has trouble accenting two and four when walking uh, they also are in big trouble. Often people rush. I don't know. Practicing cross rhythms help.
Ideally if you are performing in public this kind of thing is not troubling you.
For fun here is Mingus smashing the daylights out of two and four.
If you can't find one with a metronome on two and four you are in deep trouble. This is beginner stuff. Some people have to practice it. If someone has trouble accenting two and four when walking uh, they also are in big trouble. Often people rush. I don't know. Practicing cross rhythms help.
Ideally if you are performing in public this kind of thing is not troubling you.
For fun here is Mingus smashing the daylights out of two and four.
Best workshop thus far. I'm trying to decide if all of the work was worth it and... am leaning to not. I could gather a gaggle of UCLA undergrads and not have to travel two days. Still, the group I have in Louisville is special; their worst trait is passiveness followed by apathy and unresponsiveness, but they play well and earn their place. They're all skilled. I'm trying to think who's bringing up the rear this year and, I think it's between me and the guitar player and frankly, we're both pretty good. Maybe our pie-charts aren't as full as the others. I have MORE work yet to do on my time feel, presence, and consistency, but he's monotone with poor dynamics and not very good melodic ideas, but he makes the changes, doesn't need a chart and is fearless. Yeah, none of us are perfect, but the group is remarkably well-and-evenly skilled. Interestingly, I only get the vibe from the trumpet and sax that they're better than the rest of us; not my assessment. And even, the trumpet player, an adjunct community college professor from Las Vegas who taught big band but is less familiar with jazz tunes, is humble enough to recognize that he's not there yet. The sax player is so quiet that it's not possible to get a read on him. He was horribly out of tune most of the day on Tuesday but he knows how to count off a tune like a skilled pro... so, it seems like his pie chart isn't that full either.
Where is this coming from? I worked the 2 &4 exercise and got it in 3 tries. Rhythm, on a GROSS scale IS not my issue, I've had GOOD time my entire life. Yeah, I can get better, be more nuanced, I own that, but I've been able to keep a groove since birth. I think you're reading some previous conversations into this thread. Keeping a "rough" time is not my issue.
My teachers seems to be coaching to me to the next level, a more suble and concise time.
Remember, Tom - GIG spelled backwards is GIG.
Sounds like some, but not all, "fun". You're payin' your dues.
Good for you.