Double Bass Do you emphasize 2 & 4 while walking in 4?

[crd]

Where is this coming from? I worked the 2 &4 exercise and got it in 3 tries. Rhythm, on a GROSS scale IS not my issue, I've had GOOD time my entire life. Yeah, I can get better, be more nuanced, I own that, but I've been able to keep a groove since birth. I think you're reading some previous conversations into this thread. Keeping a "rough" time is not my issue.
My teachers seems to be coaching to me to the next level, a more suble and concise time.

Here:

But, emphasizing 2 and 4 while walking in 4 seems a bit difficult when I tried it today. Do you agree with the teacher? Are there times when it isn't appropriate?

Swing isn't as simple as accenting 2 & 4 but I agree with your teacher. Accenting 2 & 4 is a common gesture and surprising hard to do without rushing.

I don't remember any of our previous conversations. I don't know you're playing.

I am mostly responding to Don and Damon. Taking your time from your metronome isn't wise 1 3 or and of beat 12 but people have to start somewhere. Why not replicate a common high hat click? If someone can't find one in that context they should work on that.

I also gave an iconic example of a bass player accenting two and four. I have plenty more if you want more examples.

 

[Tom Lane]

Remember, Tom - GIG spelled backwards is GIG.
Sounds like some, but not all, "fun". You're payin' your dues.
Good for you.

Thanks Don. Happy to get to the point to be able to

 

[Don Kasper]

I also gave an iconic example of a bass player accenting two and four.

I don't hear Mingus smashing 2 and 4 - I hear him smashing 1,2,3 and 4, on gut strings with a high action.
But that's me...You are certainly entitled to your listening experience, FYI.
IMFO, of course.
Thanks for your opinions and comments.

 

[crd]

I don't hear Mingus smashing 2 and 4 - I hear him smashing 1,2,3 and 4, on gut strings with a high action.
But that's me...You are certainly entitled to your listening experience, FYI.
IMFO, of course.
Thanks for your opinions and comments.

Thank you, Don! I appreciate the permission!

 

[Wasnex]

For fun here is Mingus smashing the daylights out of two and four

(IMHO) There are definitely parts of the recording where some smashing on two and four occurs...specifically where you cued the video to start.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Yes. He's quite good. Similar to Joey Barron or Adam Nussbaum. Excellent technique and time. Maybe not a national star, not sure. His control reminds me of Jeff Hamilton.

He was a student and protege of Hamilton’s. Jeff was his mentor and they remain close.

But I recently got to play briefly with Mike Hyman who, I'd say is much more creative.

Hyman is more creative than 99 percent of musicians I know!

 

[sean_on_bass]

Today, a teacher, a drummer, told me to emphasize 2 and 4 more while we're playing Autumn Leaves. We're copping the Miles recording with the riff intro. It's slowish at about 105 bpm. My regular teacher made a similar comment a few months ago and suggested that I set the metronome on 2 & 4 and play a melody against it. I did that and I agree, it does swing better. I also started encorporating a lot more hammer-ons, and pull-offs emphasizing 2 & 4 and I also agree that it seems to swing better. But, emphasizing 2 and 4 while walking in 4 seems a bit difficult when I tried it today. Do you agree with the teacher? Are there times when it isn't appropriate?

I don't agree at all. In past threads on this topic i've asked for examples in classic recordings of a bassist accenting two and four and received zilch.

 

[damonsmith]

Still, the group I have in Louisville is special;

There is a bass player that is great at walking in Louisville you can ask about this stuff instead of "the internet"!

 

[Tom Lane]

There is a bass player that is great at walking in Louisville you can ask about this stuff instead of "the internet"!

Actually, I started to DM Chris but then thought the question has general appeal, which is clearly true, and then Chris doesn't have to feel obligated to respond if he's busy or disinterested. I did ask him to walk a chorus of bye bye Blackbird and it was in my inbox before I woke up. Good transcription material for the plane ride.

 

[damonsmith]

Here:

Swing isn't as simple as accenting 2 & 4 but I agree with your teacher. Accenting 2 & 4 is a common gesture and surprising hard to do without rushing.

I don't remember any of our previous conversations. I don't know you're playing.

I am mostly responding to Don and Damon. Taking your time from your metronome isn't wise 1 3 or and of beat 12 but people have to start somewhere. Why not replicate a common high hat click? If someone can't find one in that context they should work on that.

I also gave an iconic example of a bass player accenting two and four. I have plenty more if you want more examples.

1. You are right, it is a common gesture. I think, in general, the metronome on all four beats over many years gets your time together so that when you are working on MUSIC - which is not practice - you don't need it at all. That goes for swing or any other feel.
All that metronome on 1&3, 2&4,, just 1, etc. IMO is bringing a focus on time into a situation where rhythm & feel are primary.
As you know, I am no fan of multi-tasking. So, those metronome "games" feel like a waste of time.
Also, walking with the metronome on all four beats and getting that to swing is also challenging but entirely possible. John Lindberg said the idea is to make the metronome sound hip.

2. I would argue that while it exists in the wild it has no place in getting your walking together. You have to remember: when Mingus criticized the "Avant Garde" it was because he thought his version of "Avant Garde" was better. It was certainly not some "Wynton style guard dog of the tradition" nonsense. Mingus was always pushing and did all sorts of things.
If we are talking about the basics of walking it would be more like Paul Chambers, Ray Brown, Red Mitchell on gut, Leroy Vinnegar, Sam Jones, Sonny Dallas, etc.
I wouldn't recommend accenting 2 & 4 as basic device any more than I'd recommend skips & pull offs.

 

[Paul New]

I think you all are missing the point.

If you can't find one with a metronome on two and four you are in deep trouble. This is beginner stuff. Some people have to practice it. If someone has trouble accenting two and four when walking uh, they also are in big trouble. Often people rush. I don't know. Practicing cross rhythms help.

Ideally if you are performing in public this kind of thing is not troubling you.

For fun here is Mingus smashing the daylights out of two and four.

Who can't find one?

I'm all for using the metronome in a lot of ways to solidify my sense of time, but not to show me where to accent beats.

In the Mingus piece the accented 2 and 4 in that section are COMPOSED. He wrote those in for a particular feel. You go out and start doing that on every tune and you might not be pleased with the results.

 

[crd]

Who can't find one?

I'm all for using the metronome in a lot of ways to solidify my sense of time, but not to show me where to accent beats.

In the Mingus piece the accented 2 and 4 in that section are COMPOSED. He wrote those in for a particular feel. You go out and start doing that on every tune and you might not be pleased with the results.

Are you suggesting Mingus wrote down his quarter note walking lines? Have you ever looked at his scores? This is ridiculous.

I never suggested accenting two and four all the time; just that this is a simple thing to do. Similar to walking a blues or rc, it's just something everyone should be able to do. Not a big deal. I don't suggest using a metronome to take your time from but if I had a student who got hung up with the click on two and four we would take some time to deal with that.

 

[Paul New]

Are you suggesting Mingus wrote down his quarter note walking lines? Have you ever looked at his scores? This is ridiculous.

I never suggested accenting two and four all the time; just that this is a simple thing to do. Similar to walking a blues or rc, it's just something everyone should be able to do. Not a big deal. I don't suggest using a metronome to take your time from but if I had a student who got hung up with the click on two and four we would take some time to deal with that.

That’s not what I said, but if you can’t hear that the piece, and particularly that section, was composed, I can’t help you.

 

[crd]

That’s not what I said, but if you can’t hear that the piece, and particularly that section, was composed, I can’t help you.

I've been performing that piece in public for twenty years. I don't understand what your point is.

 

[Wasnex]

That’s not what I said, but if you can’t hear that the piece, and particularly that section, was composed, I can’t help you.

I think a lot of the 2 and 4 accents he plays were done on the fly.

I am a bit dismayed that this is seen as controversial. While I agree that the 4 beats of swing bass are usually dynamically consistent, a good player can tastefully inject accents, back beats, and other articulations to make the bass line more interesting.

 

[Paul New]

I think a lot of the 2 and 4 accents he plays were done on the fly.

I am a bit dismayed that this is seen as controversial. While I agree that the 4 beats of swing bass are usually dynamically consistent, a good player can tastefully inject accents, back beats, and other articulations to make the bass line more interesting.

I don’t disagree with that.

 

[matthewbrown]

It's good to practice accenting different patterns of beats, isn't it? And different subdivisions, too. Sometimes when I'm walking I'll emphasize groups of three for several bars, just to offer a bit of metric counterpoint. When there's no drummer, I'll emphasis 2&4 sometimes just to hold things together. Or I may play quarter note triplets during a pedal point, emphasizing 1&3.

For myself, I now have 2&4 so ingrained as accented beats that I have to rethink things entirely when I'm playing classical!