Do you sub?

[TexasHeat]

I don't sub but I use subs. These days I write out a chart for almost every single song, no matter how simple to make it as easy as possible for the subs.

This was after I played with the world's worst sub. My regular bass player was out, but my drummer said he knew someone really good. My drummer is really good, so I figured, OK. The sub didn't want to do a paid rehearsal, but I insisted. It's a good thing too because, he hadn't spent even a minute going through the material. Immediately after the rehearsal I wrote out a chart for everything and sent them to him. We played the gig and I don't know what the hell he was doing, but he was just really awful. I don't think he played a single song correctly the whole night and I'm talking about 12 bar rock songs like Great Balls of Fire, Chuck Berry's Carol and other songs with three chords which repeat the same pattern the entire song.

Fortunately the club manager loved us and we have been playing the club regularly ever since. It just proves that song selection is everything. But I can tell you that I'd cancel a gig before I'd play with that horses posterior again. The only funny part is that he was over on the other side of the stage acting like, "Yeah, I've got this. I'm all that and a bag of chips." Well, he wasn't even the bag of chips.

Can anyone tell that I'm still mad about that?

I hear ya.

The one and only time I got to play at the Hole in the Wall in Austin, our regular drummer couldn't make it, so he hooked us up with someone who "was great!!" The guy was like, "Nah, we don't need a rehearsal, i listened to your songs and I got it."

Nope, he didn't "got it". The worst part was after our set, the manager came up to me and one of the guitar players and said something like, "I was hoping to get you guys into a residency with us, but I don't know...."

 

[Pocket Dave]

I hear ya.

The one and only time I got to play at the Hole in the Wall in Austin, our regular drummer couldn't make it, so he hooked us up with someone who "was great!!" The guy was like, "Nah, we don't need a rehearsal, i listened to your songs and I got it."

Nope, he didn't "got it". The worst part was after our set, the manager came up to me and one of the guitar players and said something like, "I was hoping to get you guys into a residency with us, but I don't know...."

I lived in the neighborhood behind and just NW of that place in the early '80s when it was a super-low-paying neighborhood bar. Bands that played there were pretty good, definitely a cut above some of the bands on 6th St, and there were some that drew better than others, but it just wasn't much more than a neighborhood dive, living in shadows of AJ's Midtown/later Antone's when they moved to Guadalupe in '82.

Glad to see it became a real live music destination.

BTW, I was living right in the middle of UT's "frat row" neighborhood in a dumpy 2nd story condo on the corner of 28th and Salado. Hated the neighborhood but it was close to work.

 

[lefty]

Yes.

 

[Lance Bunyon]

Hate it.
I spent 3 years in a doo wop/Motown band in the 90s and subbed for them a few years after I quit.
The arrangements had changed so much with a new drummer I barely kept up.
Then there was a local dude who has an alternative album he released. I wood shopped for days and also barely felt adequate to his music.

I like to be a big knowledgeable fish in a small pond.

 

[Passinwind]

I know a lot of you regularly do sub work and for a pro, that's a big part of keeping busy. I've only subbed a handful of time, just to help out a friend in need. Those gigs were stressful and it's not something I'd like to do on a regular basis. It's not that I don't like playing with different people, but the work involved in learning a bunch of songs and knowing I'm probably not playing them as well as the band deserves doesn't sit well with me.

So, how many of us do sub work and how much is that a part of your playing out?

Do you enjoy playing with different bands more than just one or a few that you're a regular member of?

I've been retired from gigging for several years now, but subbing was a big part of my workload for the last 15 or so years before I stopped playing out. Most of the work I got was predicated on leveraging my improv and soloing ability, and I rarely had to prepare without charts. And yes, I relished pushing myself and playing styles I was less familiar with, and many of my most memorable shows were sub or pickup gigs.

 

[hrodbert696]

Well, I haven't done any subbing for a while, and after this week, I'm a lot more reluctant to offering to do so.

The situation: there's a band that my daughter's fiance's father runs sound for. They have an elderly bassist who has spoken about retiring. Last winter there was a whole go-around about maybe me sitting in or auditioning to be their new bassist, which I learned a bunch of songs for and then nothing happened, so I forgot about it.

So this past Sunday, my future son-in-law passes along a message from his dad that this band needs a sub for a gig on Saturday. It so happens I'm free because my main band had to cancel a gig (funeral in the singer's family). So I contact them again.

The BL is a whirlwind of texts and emails in rapid-fire, to the point it's hard to keep track of. I get three different set lists in two days - partly a good thing, because he's asking if I know this or that song and cutting the more complicated ones I don't know, but it winds up being Monday night before I actually know what we'll be playing. He suggests the band could rehearse during the day on a weekday (they're all teachers and their summer days are open), so we agree on noon Thursday (today). The next day there's another text, saying we need to change the time because one of others has a conflict, which I agree to. He offers to come over with an acoustic guitar to run through tunes with me before that. I've got a lot of chauffering teens around to do and really need my available time to just focus on woodshedding these tunes, so I decline that, so that I can just know my own parts before meeting the rest of them.

11:00 this morning I'm in my basement giving all the new ones I had to learn one last run to make them gel. At noon I'm meeting my wife for lunch, then at 12:30 I'm going to head to his house for this rehearsal, which I'm thinking is at 1:00. I get in my car and there's a text from him - "Are you OK?" I answer "yeah, why? I'm on my way over." He calls me and tells me the others had been there and now have left, that the rehearsal was supposed to be at 11. I scroll back through texts and realize he's right - I thought I had seen a 1 when he wrote an 11 for the time change, and I've missed rehearsal.

At that point he tells me that he's called another guy who has subbed for them in the past. There's a little back and forth, where I'm reminding him that I've been cramming on this music all week and am ready for the gig (I had also shared it on FB and sent out invites), he says he'll see, and calls me back a few minutes later that the other guy has confirmed and he's doing the gig. I apologize about having screwed up the time change and he's saying he doesn't want any bad feeling over this, he thinks I'm a good guy and he wants to work with me in the future, etc.

So, I'm frustrated over the whole thing. To be fair, I did blow it on missing the rehearsal, and I can see that they may have taken it that I'm flaky, since they don't know me to have a track record otherwise. On the other hand, I'm kind of ticked that he called the other guy before he knew what was going on with me - how ready I was, why I had missed rehearsal, etc. Seems to me he could have waited until I replied to make that call. If he trusted the other guy more than me to deliver without a rehearsal, why jump through all the hoops with me in the first place?

Bottom line, it's one thing so sub for, say, a former band, or people you've played with where there's some trust and you know the repertoire. But in this case, I focused all my available time for the week on prepping for this gig, only to have it pulled from me over a miscommunication.

 

[Bass Viking]

This was after I played with the world's worst sub. My regular bass player was out, but my drummer said he knew someone really good. My drummer is really good, so I figured, OK. The sub didn't want to do a paid rehearsal, but I insisted. It's a good thing too because, he hadn't spent even a minute going through the material. Immediately after the rehearsal I wrote out a chart for everything and sent them to him. We played the gig and I don't know what the hell he was doing, but he was just really awful. I don't think he played a single song correctly the whole night and I'm talking about 12 bar rock songs like Great Balls of Fire, Chuck Berry's Carol and other songs with three chords which repeat the same pattern the entire song.

Did you have a word with your drummer about his judgement?

 

[KenSmithFan]

Did you have a word with your drummer about his judgement?

No. He likes the guy and thinks he’s good. I don’t think that there is anything to gain by telling him that he’s wrong.

 

[Jefenator]

Being the regular guy in an over-rehearsed project can be annoying; people stress on all that left-brain chatter that more often than not gets forgotten by next week.
When I'm the sub, they're usually grateful just to see me. We're all that much more in the moment and that's usually when the best music happens.
(Bonus if I've had time to work up the fancy unison stuff.)

 

[Pocket Dave]

Well, I haven't done any subbing for a while, and after this week, I'm a lot more reluctant to offering to do so.

The situation: there's a band that my daughter's fiance's father runs sound for. They have an elderly bassist who has spoken about retiring. Last winter there was a whole go-around about maybe me sitting in or auditioning to be their new bassist, which I learned a bunch of songs for and then nothing happened, so I forgot about it.

So this past Sunday, my future son-in-law passes along a message from his dad that this band needs a sub for a gig on Saturday. It so happens I'm free because my main band had to cancel a gig (funeral in the singer's family). So I contact them again.

The BL is a whirlwind of texts and emails in rapid-fire, to the point it's hard to keep track of. I get three different set lists in two days - partly a good thing, because he's asking if I know this or that song and cutting the more complicated ones I don't know, but it winds up being Monday night before I actually know what we'll be playing. He suggests the band could rehearse during the day on a weekday (they're all teachers and their summer days are open), so we agree on noon Thursday (today). The next day there's another text, saying we need to change the time because one of others has a conflict, which I agree to. He offers to come over with an acoustic guitar to run through tunes with me before that. I've got a lot of chauffering teens around to do and really need my available time to just focus on woodshedding these tunes, so I decline that, so that I can just know my own parts before meeting the rest of them.

11:00 this morning I'm in my basement giving all the new ones I had to learn one last run to make them gel. At noon I'm meeting my wife for lunch, then at 12:30 I'm going to head to his house for this rehearsal, which I'm thinking is at 1:00. I get in my car and there's a text from him - "Are you OK?" I answer "yeah, why? I'm on my way over." He calls me and tells me the others had been there and now have left, that the rehearsal was supposed to be at 11. I scroll back through texts and realize he's right - I thought I had seen a 1 when he wrote an 11 for the time change, and I've missed rehearsal.

At that point he tells me that he's called another guy who has subbed for them in the past. There's a little back and forth, where I'm reminding him that I've been cramming on this music all week and am ready for the gig (I had also shared it on FB and sent out invites), he says he'll see, and calls me back a few minutes later that the other guy has confirmed and he's doing the gig. I apologize about having screwed up the time change and he's saying he doesn't want any bad feeling over this, he thinks I'm a good guy and he wants to work with me in the future, etc.

So, I'm frustrated over the whole thing. To be fair, I did blow it on missing the rehearsal, and I can see that they may have taken it that I'm flaky, since they don't know me to have a track record otherwise. On the other hand, I'm kind of ticked that he called the other guy before he knew what was going on with me - how ready I was, why I had missed rehearsal, etc. Seems to me he could have waited until I replied to make that call. If he trusted the other guy more than me to deliver without a rehearsal, why jump through all the hoops with me in the first place?

Bottom line, it's one thing so sub for, say, a former band, or people you've played with where there's some trust and you know the repertoire. But in this case, I focused all my available time for the week on prepping for this gig, only to have it pulled from me over a miscommunication.

This is probably dedicated-thread-worthy; There's some to unpack here.

I understand it's frustrating to put so much work into it and lose the sub gig; Put yourself into the BL's shoes though: He calls a rehearsal, texts you the time, his band takes time out of their day to show up - in the morning no less - and the guy who the rehearsal is called for no-shows/no-calls.

Not sure I'd count this as a reason to avoid sub gigs in the future since it would be on me whether or not this ever happened again.

FWIW/Probably-stating-the-obvious: When someone texts me a time/date I put it in my Google Gig Calendar then and there. Long text threads make for a poor document management system.

To be 100% transparent, I'm not perfect - I got a call when I was still 25 minutes from a gig up near the Texas-Oklahoma line, "Where are you - Downbeat is in 10 minutes". I came rolling in 10 minutes late after breaking a traffic law or two; The band was playing bass-less while I did a rushed 10-minute setup-of-shame in front of a packed house.

The difference was I'd been playing with this band for probably 100 gigs; They knew I was better than that, that this was a fluke. OTOH, yours was first-impression situation, your one and only chance to get it right as the saying goes.

Side note: Heading out to a rehearsal a half-hour before it's supposed to start is kind of a no-go around here with some bands, where start times can be like downbeats; It's expected to be setup, tuned up and ready to hit the first note at the scheduled time. One BL would calmly greet stragglers as they came in the door with, "rehearsal's already started; See you on time next time". Not sure if that's how this band ran things, but I would always ask if the time was arrival or rehearsal-start-time if it wasn't made clear.

Other side note: Seems we always had much less patience for tardiness or unpreparedness at morning rehearsals or auditions than afternoon or evening. We'd either be coming in from a late night gig or giving up valuable work, chore or errand time.

 

[socialleper]

No. I play bass in my band playing the music we wrote. I don't have any interest in learning someone else's stuff or dealing with all the personalities that go along with working with multiple bands.

 

[hrodbert696]

This is probably dedicated-thread-worthy; There's some to unpack here.

I understand it's frustrating to put so much work into it and lose the sub gig; Put yourself into the BL's shoes though: He calls a rehearsal, texts you the time, his band takes time out of their day to show up - in the morning no less - and the guy who the rehearsal is called for no-shows/no-calls.

Not sure I'd count this as a reason to avoid sub gigs in the future since it would be on me whether or not this ever happened again.

FWIW/Probably-stating-the-obvious: When someone texts me a time/date I put it in my Google Gig Calendar then and there. Long text threads make for a poor document management system.

To be 100% transparent, I'm not perfect - I got a call when I was still 25 minutes from a gig up near the Texas-Oklahoma line, "Where are you - Downbeat is in 10 minutes". I came rolling in 10 minutes late after breaking a traffic law or two; The band was playing bass-less while I did a rushed 10-minute setup-of-shame in front of a packed house.

The difference was I'd been playing with this band for probably 100 gigs; They knew I was better than that, that this was a fluke. OTOH, yours was first-impression situation, your one and only chance to get it right as the saying goes.

Side note: Heading out to a rehearsal a half-hour before it's supposed to start is kind of a no-go around here with some bands, where start times can be like downbeats; It's expected to be setup, tuned up and ready to hit the first note at the scheduled time. One BL would calmly greet stragglers as they came in the door with, "rehearsal's already started; See you on time next time". Not sure if that's how this band ran things, but I would always ask if the time was arrival or rehearsal-start-time if it wasn't made clear.

Other side note: Seems we always had much less patience for tardiness or unpreparedness at morning rehearsals or auditions than afternoon or evening. We'd either be coming in from a late night gig or giving up valuable work, chore or errand time.

All totally fair, and I acknowledge that the screw-up was on my part; I DID have the rehearsal on google calendar, and when he texted to change the time, I changed the time on the calendar. The error was that I misread the message, and thought I saw a 1 when it was an 11. One more text from either of us could have cleared that up, but didn't happen. What bugs me about it is losing the gig instantly, before he spoke to me about why I missed the rehearsal. For all he knew I had a momentary family crisis happening or something.

 

[Wasnex]

It's not that I don't like playing with different people, but the work involved in learning a bunch of songs and knowing I'm probably not playing them as well as the band deserves doesn't sit well with me.

The answer when I was still playing was: "...occasionally to help a friend." To be honest I was not very good at subbing, or I would have done it more.

The people who are good at subbing tend to be able to fake their way through a lot of tunes. So it's not really a matter of learning a bunch of new songs for each gig. Success comes from both knowing a lot of tunes and the ability to fake it when you don't actually know the tune.

Musicians who think in terms of numbers can often analyze a song as they are playing through it. The cool thing about using the numbers is you recognize and remember patterns. So when playing through a song, you may recognize the verse form is from a song you know and the chorus form is from another song you know. So almost immediately you know the chords of the new song as a chimera of two old songs. IMHO certain mental aptitudes are required to process music like this, and unfortunately I do not excel in those areas.

Some subs are really phenomenal, all-around players. But IMHO, many seem to be fairly weak musicians. Many of them always sound like they are faking it, even when playing with their regular band(s).

 

[Pocket Dave]

All totally fair, and I acknowledge that the screw-up was on my part; I DID have the rehearsal on google calendar, and when he texted to change the time, I changed the time on the calendar. The error was that I misread the message, and thought I saw a 1 when it was an 11. One more text from either of us could have cleared that up, but didn't happen. What bugs me about it is losing the gig instantly, before he spoke to me about why I missed the rehearsal. For all he knew I had a momentary family crisis happening or something.

Unfortunately, it's no matter on a first-impression basis though.

I actually forgot an instrument going to a new band run-through with a gig coming up a couple weeks later in the '80s; I ended up borrowing one from a band member.

Despite nailing every part, they had no confidence in my ability not to forget other things and not to be a screwup. I was done with that band, despite learning the better part of a whole setlist. Was I angry? At first, but at the end of the day, what happened was 100% on me.

Not the exact same as blowing through an audition/rehearsal time, but bands have to make quick decisions based on limited info with gigs looming. First impressions are almost always everything.

IME, I've got 100% control over whether this kind of thing happens again or not, especially by owning it, learning from it and moving on.

For me, seeing it as a reason to avoid subbing again would be burying some personal s*** that I'm better off bringing to the light of day. 'Been down that path before and it's always been a growth inhibiting light-blocker.

YMMV.

 

[Pocket Dave]

The answer when I was still playing was: "...occasionally to help a friend." To be honest I was not very good at subbing, or I would have done it more.

The people who are good at subbing tend to be able to fake their way through a lot of tunes. So it's not really a matter of learning a bunch of new songs for each gig. Success comes from both knowing a lot of tunes and the ability to fake it when you don't actually know the tune.

Musicians who think in terms of numbers can often analyze a song as they are playing through it. The cool thing about using the numbers is you recognize and remember patterns. So when playing through a song, you may recognize the verse form is from a song you know and the chorus form is from another song you know. So almost immediately you know the chords of the new song as a chimera of two old songs. IMHO certain mental aptitudes are required to process music like this, and unfortunately I do not excel in those areas.

Some subs are really phenomenal, all-around players. But IMHO, many seem to be fairly weak musicians. Many of them always sound like they are faking it, even when playing with their regular band(s).

I don't like faking my way through tunes on sub gigs unless they're audibles that weren't on the setlist. Instead, I'll woodshed and sometimes number-chart whatever's necessary.

Though I'm familiar with enough classic rock, motown, country and blues conventions, and have enough experience to hear a song in my head and know when there's a 2 or 6 coming vs a 4 to be decent at faking.

Thing is, guys who rely on faking for sub gigs in my network usually get pushed to the bottom of the list.

 

[Wasnex]

I don't like faking my way through tunes on sub gigs unless they're audibles that weren't on the setlist. Instead, I'll woodshed and sometimes number-chart whatever's necessary.

Though I'm familiar with enough classic rock, motown, country and blues conventions, and have enough experience to hear a song in my head and know when there's a 2 or 6 coming vs a 4 to be decent at faking.

Thing is, guys who rely on faking for sub gigs in my network usually get pushed to the bottom of the list.

If I am able to prepare, I might consider myself more of a sideman. I can do really well in this situation. However, I wouldn't do it unless it pays well enough to make it worth my while to do the prep.

Most of the sub gigs I did as a favor did not give me the opportunity to prepare. They assumed I could fake it and when I asked what to prepare, they don't want to be bothered with the details. They might say something like, "Don't worry, you will just hear it." This type of band tends to work regularly and may even have the local scene locked down so well that it is difficult for "good" bands to get a toe in the door.

Years back I remember some guys who would regularly put three bands in three different venues, on the same night, all under the same family name. Some of the variants would only have one regular member, meaning all the rest were subs who could fake it well enough. In regards to musicality, the bar was pretty low for bassists. The players who got the job were not great musicians, but they did have the ability to fake a lot of tunes. Sort of the reverse of my skillset.

Of course not every sub gig is like this, but from what I have seen many are.

 

[badinage]

It seems most of my gigs now (in public anyway) are un-rehearsed things where I'm expected to wing it. The last one was to be a duo with a Chet Atkins clone fingerstyle guitar player that I've played with several times before. Then Uwe Kruger (really nice guy) showed up unexpectedly, so it was a trio and the performance veered way off from stuff I'm used to playing, but it was still standard Western music that would have been on American top 40 or Country radio (some of them a lot) over the past 75 years. It went fine.

My July 3rd gig I'll be expecting some American-patriotic instrumentals to be thrown in, and probably a guest player or two also. Still standard changes on songs where I'd be assumed to have "heard it before", so it's "what key, and hear it coming". I probably won't have to play any of the more complex Sousa Marches.

My next one (less than two weeks out) is at a large ritzy resort at one of their "Wine Pavilions", with a band I've seen perform once. Their regular bassist and usual fill-in are both vacationing. I was told it's mostly a "mill-about" crowd, but "there will be quite a few people that will be there seated and listening intently... we have a following". Okay... What's the dress code? "Business Casual. nothing with any advertising on it, they're picky about that". Once again, it's songs everybody has heard. The most challenging bass part I recall from seeing them before is Orleans' "Dance with Me", but I already know that one. To keep themselves entertained on these old chestnuts, the band does do some pretty fancy intros, outros, turnarounds and modulations, but it's Willie Nelson fancy, not Frank Zappa fancy. I'm a little nervous since it's a four-hour gig and also about the "listening intently" portion of the patrons, but it pays me $250, I was told maybe I'll get a kinda-sorta setlist before hand, and advised not to worry. I think it will be a bit of a challenge but a lot of fun.

 

[BassGuyFL]

I used to sub a lot and unfortunately it’s quieted down a lot. Some bands folded, some have someone else permanent. Also I really don’t like social media so I’m not on Facebook and Instagram. Which means I’m out of sight, out of mind for a lot of other bands.

I really enjoyed it too I got to play multiple styles of music which kept me on my toes. I’ve basically only played in my main band the last 3 years and playing the same 25-30 songs all the time is getting to be monotonous. Also the last 3 years or so has been a lot to deal with emotionally for me lots of things have gone on so I’ve just been busy trying to tread water and it wasn’t a big priority.

 

[JRA]

i voted when the thread started and never posted on the subject!

i voted "yes, i'm in one or more bands....sub playing too" based on my experience and history, so i didn't answer the question from current circumstances: the last few times i've subbed have been for friends or friends-of-friends. charts were supplied on a few (or i already knew the tunes). i negotiated pay on some, a couple i did for free. i took all of the sub gigs thinking i'd have some fun, and i did, so there's that.

but subbing was a regular thing when i played mostly jazz. everyone subbed for everyone else, if available. also, it's waaaay easier to sub, IMO, if there are charts involved. most of the time we'd just show up on time and play. only occasionally would a rehearsal be involved --- bigger shows/bands required them, of course. subbing was/is de rigueur for many full-timers.

 

[tshapiro]

All totally fair, and I acknowledge that the screw-up was on my part; I DID have the rehearsal on google calendar, and when he texted to change the time, I changed the time on the calendar. The error was that I misread the message, and thought I saw a 1 when it was an 11. One more text from either of us could have cleared that up, but didn't happen. What bugs me about it is losing the gig instantly, before he spoke to me about why I missed the rehearsal. For all he knew I had a momentary family crisis happening or something.

As a BL, I would have have called you as we approached rehearsal start. If I didn’t get an answer, I’d be rapid calling every option I had to backfill… would not be waiting to hear what happened. Bad on him for not giving you a courtesy call at rehearsal start. After that, I understand where he’s coming from bc a no-show when I have a gig on the line makes me panic.

Side note: sometimes I purposely double-book backup options 1 and 2 if I’m uncertain who’s going to work out. If both are ready, I pay one of them their gig fee not to play with us. I hate to cancel, but people know if I book them they’re going to get paid, regardless.