Feeling pressure to go ampless

[jdh3000]

Just got in a band where the former bass player used IEMS and a preamp/DI.

A couple of the band members have approached me about not using an amp and just using a stage monitor.

I have a pre/DI, so that's not an issue.. I don't have IEMS and can't really afford a decent set, and not real sure if they'd work for me.

A few weeks ago we played a small venue where stage space was tight, so I tried it. The sound was ok-ish but not ideal; however we we playing at low volumes.

Last gig I thought I'd give it another try, but this time we were in a larger venue and the my stage sound was aweful and nothing I could really fix with the preamp.

Granted they can give me my own monitor mix but the rhe stage sound for me just isn't working.

Everyone else in the group is using amps, and I know all the previous bass players used amps. For some reason the last one in his short time with them set some sort of precedent that I'm expected to follow.

I'm using the smallest amp I have and just for stage volume. I don't play excessively loud, just with it near me so I can hear it.

The BL hasn't approached me about this, but it may be he's having these others take care of it.

I don't want to mess this gig up, nor do I want to get on anyone's bad side, I've just always used an amp and don't feel like I play my best without it.

I know a lot of players are going with IEMS but I don't personally know any who are using floor monitors.

I really don't know what I should do.

I appreciate any advice.

 

[Parzival]

I would ask them why is it so important for you to go ampless when everyone else uses an amp? I would tell them point blank, I'll go ampless when everyone else goes ampless.

I have found when it is not the bass player or an outside sound person that knows what they are doing mixing the sound, the bass gets shafted. I went and saw some guys I know play last weekend. The bass player does the sound and has an amp on stage. They sounded awesome. I've have tried telling our guitar players that when a crowd or club thinks we are too loud (we aren't and we hardly ever hear it but out guitar/sound person and lead singer are always way too paranoid about it), it is because of the guitars or drum kit (snare/cymbals). The higher frequencies are what bother people, not the lower frequencies coming from bass and kick. People want to feel the music. Some sound people just don't get it. Because they play guitar most of the time IME.

When going ampless, you are still only as good as the person running sound, even moreso. There is a band we know that is totally ampless and they are too loud to the point it just sounds like a messy wall of sound. Guitar player runs sound and the guitar is so loud it will hurt your ears.

I get a little heated on this subject and like to vent so I appreciate the topic. There is nothing wrong with running amps on stage. Folks have been doing it forever. If it doesn't sound good, it is a sound person issue. If they know what they are doing, it should be no problem.

 

[superheavyfunk]

Sounds like you need to have a conversation with the band.

 

[brianrost]

Are you sharing the monitors with the vocals and other instruments or is it just for you? If it’s just for you, I don’t see how that’s any different than using a small amp aimed at you rather than the audience.

I’ve played at an upscale local venue that banned all amps, everything must be DIed. Each floor monitor is on it's own mix allowing for “more me”. I didn’t miss my amp at all and I did not use a preamp, either. I thought it sounded great but it's an expensive PA installation run by a competent soundperson.

 

[Parzival]

I do go ampless every now and then these days, but it is due to certain clubs. We have a new club that is a really small room and full stage of amps could get out of hand and I realize that. And, guitar sound person is also going to go ampless, so I appreciate that. Another club had a cave of a stage and for me, it did not matter how I eq'd the amp, it did not sound right and didn't help things out front. My rig sounds great everywhere else, so it is not me or the rig. It's that darn cave. But, it took me a while to build enough trust in sound guy to do it because he has never understood how to properly mix the bass out front and have it bumping and sounding great. He has finally gotten it really good a couple of times now and I made a point to ask everyone if they noticed that we had more people out dancing at the gigs. It wasn't because of new songs, we weren't playing them any differently. I just have to over and over try to get them to realize when there is a solid bumping bass in the mix, people will get out there and move their a$$. They can't help it.

 

[brianrost]

Sounds like you need to have a conversation with the band.

You should just ask them “Why?”

Obviously they seem to enjoy the experience of less bass on stage, to some extent that is the “more me” phenomenon.

I have done sound from the stage for my bands in the past and I’m probably the only member who never needs a monitor, I can hear all I need without one. I also never want any of the bass in the monitors unless other members ask for it. I’ve found that when there’s more than one person singing and only one monitor mix, each vocalist thinks the other is too loud. I like to set up all the monitor mixes the same and then turn up each vocalist in their monitor only. This always works like a charm.

 

[Parzival]

You should just ask them “Why?”

Obviously they seem to enjoy the experience of less bass on stage, to some extent that is the “more me” phenomenon.

I have done sound from the stage for my bands in the past and I’m probably the only member who never needs a monitor, I can hear all I need without one. I also never want any of the bass in the monitors unless other members ask for it. I’ve found that when there’s more than one person singing and only one monitor mix, each vocalist thinks the other is too loud. I like to set up all the monitor mixes the same and then turn up each vocalist in their monitor only. This always works like a charm.

I am the same. I can hear everyone no problem. I tell the sound guy I want my vocals in my monitor and that is it. Nothing else. Others on stage say they have issues hearing others and I don't have an issue. Can hear everyone fine. May be because we have been bass players and haven't been exposed to the nasty higher frequency sounds all our life that others have that do the most damage to your hearing. Could be because I mostly key on the drums and vocals and don't give much passing thought to what the guitar players are noodling on other than it is the right key/chord. Who knows?

 

[RattleSnack]

Playing with or without amp is not something that should influence good musician. As professional, you should be able to adopt to any reasonable situation and other musicians will judge and value you by your ability to adopt. If you want to be preferred bassist, you should have all bases covered (monitoring via wedge, IEM, or your own amp). I have amp + cab setup, but always carry IEM, IEM headphone amp, and bass preamp with me in my gig bag.
As for IEM equipment, you don't need much. Pair of KZ ZS10 Pro earphones and Behringer P2 headphone amp will set you back around $100. Sure, you can spend more and get better, but this will do the job.
You say they can provide you with your own mix? Then you have all that you need, commit to it and adopt.

 

[ComanNorbert]

Yes,

Playing with or without amp is not something that should influence good musician. As professional, you should be able to adopt to any reasonable situation and other musicians will judge and value you by your ability to adopt. If you want to be preferred bassist, you should have all bases covered (monitoring via wedge, IEM, or your own amp). I have amp + cab setup, but always carry IEM, IEM headphone amp, and bass preamp with me in my gig bag.
As for IEM equipment, you don't need much. Pair of KZ ZS10 Pro earphones and Behringer P2 headphone amp will set you back around $100. Sure, you can spend more and get better, but this will do the job.
You say they can provide you with your own mix? Then you have all that you need, commit to it and adopt.

I approve this. The KZs (ZS10 Pro) are very good and they don't cost a lot (50$).

 

[Pdaddy1978]

I'm not averse to the forward march of stage tech.
I personally have a DI and have run my signal through the board as well as my amp.
Just me, but I don't like playing with plugs in my ears. If I was a full time pro, playing really big stages on the regular, I'd probably have to get over that. But I'm not. In small venues I still like my wedge monitor.
What I really don't like are ultimatums.
You say you tried it....didn't like it.
I'd say, I'm using my amp guys....get over it.

 

[Plucky The Bassist]

My Shure SE215s have done the job several years for a full band mix, and to my satisfaction.

I agree with the conversation advice, especially asking about the "Do as I say, not as I do" double standard with amps. If you're running a clean DI signal (which it sounds like you are) to the board and using the amp+cab for personal monitoring, now it sounds like a "them" problem and not a "you" problem. If you were insisting the house mics your cab and takes a post-EQ signal to the board, then I'd say you need to back off and be more flexible.

While I do prefer IEMs, that's when either I or someone qualified to mix bass guitar is running the board. I'd throw in to the band that a bad sound tech can ruin anything you give them...DI, mic'd cab, or even a pre-recorded track. So if their argument is based around that, it's completely illogical IMO. If they won't hear you out or ask you to leave based on that, consider that time saved from being with a toxic band. Just my $0.02...

 

[Ggaa]

What is your rig now?

 

[ric4682]

Yes,

I approve this. The KZs (ZS10 Pro) are very good and they don't cost a lot (50$).

This^^^ I go ampless on wedding gigs sometimes and I prefer the sound of these to the Shure’s I used to have. It’s not a ton of money to pick up a set, grab a tiny headphone amp like this, and a combination guitar/headphone cable like this Ernie Ball one, and you have everything you need to get your sound from the mixer to your ears for pretty cheap.
But I can also understand not wanting to go ampless too.

 

[MYLOWFREQ]

Why can they use amps, and not you?

 

[RGerhart]

If you want to go amp-less, you absolutely need one of these. Trust me, you'll never play again without it:

Buy Now | BackBeat - Play Bass, Feel Bass

Each BackBeat ships with a strap clip, custom cable, and charging cable as standard. BackBeat is the lightest, most convenient, & responsive tactile feedback tool on the market. It recreates the feel of an amplifier right on your back and delivers a powerful thump for every note you play. Clip...

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[Mark Karwan]

Others have pointed out that very capable iem's can be had for "affordable" prices, that should be helpful. AND...
If it's ok to use open-air monitors, why would it not be ok for you to use a reasonably-sized, not-super-loud bass amp?
The situation you describe seems to involve an element of cognitive disconnect on behalf of your band members regarding what "monitors" are.
If the whole stage was free from open-air monitors (everyone on in-ears only), an argument could be made that you
should not be using an amp. If wedge monitors are in play, your "bass amp" is now an instrument-specific monitoring system.
Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[micguy]

The future (except maybe for small clubs, where an amp can carry the venue) is ampless. All my gigs nowadays are ampless and in ears, and have been for years. The only thing odd about your situation is having wedges, which kinda defeats the rational for going ampless.

A "quiet stage" is really key to getting great sound for the audience. Having sources of sound on stage and the PA both contributing to what the audience hears makes things difficult for FOH folks - if you want your band to sound good, you can't place all the weight on the sound person, you have to be part of the solution, and that requires adapting to change on your part. A bass amp is a particular problem, in that, at low frequencies, it combines with the PA with phase relationships that are all over the place, giving you lots of hot and not hot spots throughout the audience. A well tuned PA with nothing competing with it is a big help if you want your bass (and your band) to sound great out there.

Taking your bass amp off the stage is a plus, once you figure out how to work with that, but replacing it with a wedge? That pretty much defeats the purpose as far as making the audience sound better.

If you band really wants to sound great, they'd take ALL the amps off the stage, and use in ears. Wedges and amps on stage is not the route to good sound.

There is one reason the guitarists might want you to take your bass amp off the stage - it's the "Lars and James" mentality, where they just don't want to hear much (if any) bass, and taking your volume control out of your hands and giving it to the sound person is their way of making sure you aren't heard over the guitars. If that's the situation, then sound has noting to do with it - it's an ego and control issue. In that case, I'd be packing up and leaving for greener pastures - life is too short to live in a band with fragile ego issues.

 

[Wasnex]

Everyone else in the group is using amps, and I know all the previous bass players used amps. For some reason the last one in his short time with them set some sort of precedent that I'm expected to follow.

If they want to use an amp but don't want you to, they are being unreasonable. At least based on what you wrote.

Running through a monitor gives up all of the advantages you get from using IEMs. Additionally, unless you have a really good monitor and prefer full-range, you will probably not like the sound. Also if you are using a preamp/DI, any adjustment you make to get a sound in the monitor will effect the sound in every mix derived from the DI. Audio techs usually prefer a pre EQ DI, which allows you to adjust your stage sound without impacting the signal going to the PA.


What can you do. Try to reason with them and establish healthy boundaries. If that doesn't work, weigh the pros and cons of staying in the group. This informs how hard you will push back. Maybe you decide to go with the flow, maybe you give them choice to either let go of the demand or find another bassist, or maybe you give them notice that you are quitting.

 

[N4860]

Granted they can give me my own monitor mix but the rhe stage sound for me just isn't working.

This seems to me to be the main issue. Getting a good mix with your IEM's is what makes using them such a great asset (as well as keeping stage volume low) although it seems odd to me that everyone else is using amps.

What are they giving you to adjust your mix? I've done some gigs recently where we each had our own IEM mix with apps on our phones that allowed us to adjust the volume of all of the sources which worked great. Once I got my mix dialed in it sounded as if I was playing along to a recording which was great and no pain at all at the end of the night from excessive stage volume.

 

[micguy]

If you want to go amp-less, you absolutely need one of these. Trust me, you'll never play again without it:

Buy Now | BackBeat - Play Bass, Feel Bass

Each BackBeat ships with a strap clip, custom cable, and charging cable as standard. BackBeat is the lightest, most convenient, & responsive tactile feedback tool on the market. It recreates the feel of an amplifier right on your back and delivers a powerful thump for every note you play. Clip...

getbackbeat.com

Some people like those, some use the board that you stand on. I've done a few years worth of gigs without any such devices, and I'm perfectly happy with what I hear and feel. Yes, some places have stages that shake my feet, and some don't, but the presence or absence of stage vibrations isn't an impediment to doing my job well. I prefer working with the simplest rig that gets the job done.