Groove Isn't The First Element of Bass Playing. It is Last!

[Lo-E]

While I agree that the groove can’t exist until a player has their part down (regardless of how simple or not that part happens to be and regardless of whether or not the player understands the theory behind it), I still feel that it’s importance shouldn’t be glossed over by teachers.

Where I might diverge from more popular opinions is that I have never felt that the groove was the responsibility of the drummer and bassist alone but, rather, that it’s the responsibility of the entire ensemble. I don’t just feel that bass teachers and drum teachers should emphasize grooving; Horn teachers, piano teachers and, especially, vocal teachers should be hammering the importance of the groove into everyone!

Jeff’s absolutely right that the player needs to have their parts down first and foremost, but once that bridge has been crossed the next hurdle is having not just the “rhythm section” but the entire band in the pocket. Everyone is in the rhythm section! Anyone who is fortunate enough to have played with a singer with a grest sense of time and a great feel for the pocket knows what I’m talking about. It elevates everything. The difference between a tight rhythm section and a tight band is bigger than some people think.

So yes, Jeff, we should indeed know our instruments first (or, at very least, how to play our parts) and then - after the mechanics are solidly in place - we should ALL, bassists and other musicians alike, focus on the groove. If teachers of all instruments put more emphasis on grooving perhaps bass teachers wouldn’t feel such a strong responsibility to take the matter into their own hands and could feel more comfortable teaching a more completist approach.

 

[Clef_de_fa]

Groove will happen if the whole band ( yes not just the bass and drum ) play in sync.

Of course it won't ever groove if you play in a different key than everyone else...

I wonder something ... when people talk about groove do they talk about funky ? Or groove is just another slang that mean dance music ? or a slang that mean something else ???

Just like the poopy use of the term "triplets" to mean everything that as a group of three note ... just gotta love slang

 

[JeffBerlin]

Disagree. You can create a great bass line with one note if it grooves.

One of the best bass lines I ever heard was from Zap Mama - playing a ceramic jug. The take home message to me was to stop being a bass player and start being a musician who plays bass notes.

IMO there are too many players who get so caught up in "learning the fretboard" they forget that they're supposed to be playing music.

A fretboard is a neutral item. It can't do anything unless one knows how to use it. You might not realize this, but you learned the fretboard or else you never could have played the tunes you enjoy.

Next, even playing one note requires figuring out what that note is even if they do this in an instant. Then one has to figure out where to play that on their bass, even if they figure this out quickly as well. And finally,after having done this, the groove of that one note takes place.

There is still a hierarchy of priority even with playing a single note. Think on this.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

If teachers of all instruments put more emphasis on grooving

I love talking about Groove, but there is soooo much/too much verbal "mess" on describing it.
In short.
My vision/my attempt to describe Groove would be different (maybe just slightly) from your understanding about Groove.
How can a teachers of all instruments start teaching Groove?
Are they going to use Your or My version of Groove?
I would not like YOUR version/teaching of Groove pushed on me, and vice versa.

 

[bass12]

"Groove" is there but without solid learning/training, it's kind of difficult to get that "groove" across.
Without mastering the instrument, it's difficult to "transfer" that internal groove into the "outer" Aural space.

Sure, I think it goes without saying that not knowing how to play your instrument will be a hindrance to one's ability to express any kind of musicality. But I disagree with the notion that "groove is a learned skill that develops after a lot of playing time". I don't think it is. I think one's sense of "groove" comes from one's desire to express a certain feel and, in my opinion, that comes from listening to music and being touched by those elements in music that would typically be defined as representative of "groove".

 

[Whousedtoplay]

But I disagree with the notion that "groove is a learned skill that develops after a lot of playing time".

P.S. Before we start arguing, let's get the description of GROOVE first.

Where did I say it, "develops after a lot of playing time"?

I've said about Mastering the Instrument - the bass guitar.
Mastering the instrument is NOT equal "a lot of playing time"!!!
Plus, any groove comes as some kind of knowledge of Music Content (like, Pentatonic scale just to start).

 

[electracoyote]

Great post, Jeff. That word "groove" gets thrown around pretty recklessly here on TB, impulsively and instantly used as some kind of moral or musical high ground, the be-all, cure-all for whatever ails your playing. It's almost a bad cliche on the level of "best bass for metal."

Thanks for eloquently putting it in perspective and giving players another way to think about it.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I think one's sense of "groove" comes from one's desire to express a certain feel

You say, "feel", I say "microtiming" as some rhythmic nuance, etc...
Who is correct?
From one thesis on "Formalized Grooving".

Or maybe, this description.

Next.
I've commented several times on mambo4's promotion of Victor Wooten's "Groove workshop".
To me, Music starts with Mood, Character, Attitude, etc..., even though, I am a big Groove/Swing "hobbyist" and would put any groove under my "microscope" for analysis.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

That word "groove" gets thrown around pretty recklessly

Here is a short excerpt from an interesting book (word-wise) about groove, "Groove a phenomenology of rhythmic nuance" by Tiger C. Roholt.

 

[electracoyote]

Here is a short excerpt from an interesting book (word-wise) about groove, "Groove a phenomenology of rhythmic nuance" by Tiger C. Roholt.
View attachment 2872690

Yes. And I really liked your more academic concrete objective approach to this thing called "groove":

You say, "feel", I say "microtiming" as some rhythmic nuance, etc...
Who is correct?

Like Jeff said, make note choice and position the priority. "Groove" is very subjective, ambiguous, and develops with time. I just hate it when players instinctively say that word without thinking about it and as though we all know exactly what they mean.

 

[consectaneus]

Maybe we can substitute "groove" for style. Or feel? When someone says, "this has a samba feel", are they talking about the notes or the rhythmic subtleties which make up a genre? Reggae is one music that comes to mind that has its own feel. I could play the same notes as "Family Man" but I probably wouldn't sound like him because of his lifetime of being involved in that culture and music.

 

[fdeck]

Granted, most of my formal training was in the form of classical lessons. I've also experienced, and observed, learning a variety of musical genres. What bassists call "groove" seems very much like what I think a classical teacher might call rhythmic interpretation. (In classical, there is something to interpret, since it typically involves playing composed music, but I think the idea still applies to a bass line that you improvise). And all music has groove -- it is no less important in classical music than in rock or jazz, even if it is more subtle.

I think Jeff is right. What matters is what comes out of your speaker, and what comes out of your speaker depends on where and when your fingers arrive at the bass. This is oversimplifying, but if your fingers can't make a note happen at the right time, any hope for "groove" goes out the window. And if you can't make it happen fairly consistently, then you or your teacher can't guess what to change in order to improve.

When I'm impressed with an electric bassist's groove, it's usually because I notice that they can play the same rhythmic nuances in measure after measure, so your brain and body begin resonating to the music. No way around it, that's technique.

Technical practice gives you the control and consistency so that you can divert more of your attention to the ensemble and the overall arc of a tune. For instance locking with the drummer requires you to be listening to the drummer while your hands play your bass for you. That's harder if all of your brain cells are occupied trying to remember where "B" is.

Classical students ease their way into groove. In the lessons that I've attended, the teacher will critique the student's playing, and discuss interpretation. This begins pretty early, but starts out at a very simplistic level. I've noticed that over the past 40 years, teachers have tended towards engaging students in more dialogue about interpretation, rather than just telling them what to do. Of course the students are learning from the teacher's example, how to be their own critic.

But you can't begin to talk about interpreting a violin concerto until you can play the notes. (I'm listening to one being practiced right now).

I have no doubt that some students have more "natural" or intuitive grasp of groove than others. It could be that they grew up immersed in music, are experienced on other instruments, or engaged in related activities such as dancing.

 

[Groove Master]

GROOVE IS LIFE.

I have written a book on the subject and I came up with specific elements that are essentials in a groove and playing only the right notes is not a guarantee in the success of a efficient bass part.

It is the first item in music, period. Especially in a bass part because we can control so much aspects of the music we play. A whole-note can groove if it is played right or can destroy a musical moment if played lifeless and out of musicality.

Every notes we play should have life in it. It's that simple. All the right notes in a bass part mean nothing if they aren't played with some sort of musical content and technique have very little to do in this. The best example for this is a walking bass. Most teachers show all the ways to connect chords and what to play over this and that. The result is a very poor walking bass in the feel but right for the choice of notes. Is that bass line right? No! I guarantee you that it will not be because no attention is put on the feel, the time, the groove and the sound of it and the swing impact of the bass part and the role of the bass in that style for example, only the notes which is a big mistake in the success of a swinging and efficient baseline IMO.

 

[5thsand4ths]

The fuss about metronomes and grooving; such small potatos in life. It's like debating about which comes first.. walking or chewing gum. Learning theory and gaining knowledge is of course vital on the path to improvement, but the rest of the issues are just sweating stuff that doesn't matter.

 

[bass12]

P.S. Before we start arguing, let's get the description of GROOVE first.

Where did I say it, "develops after a lot of playing time"?

I've said about Mastering the Instrument - the bass guitar.
Mastering the instrument is NOT equal "a lot of playing time"!!!
Plus, any groove comes as some kind of knowledge of Music Content (like, Pentatonic scale just to start).

I wasn't attributing the quote to you. The quote was by Malcolm Amos and it was what my previous post was referring to. I disagree that groove comes from knowledge of music content. I would say it comes from musical sense and an appreciation of groove. Without either of those two things I have my doubts that a person would have any groove as I would define it. Of course, the word "groove" could mean different things to different people. To me, someone who displays a good sense of groove is displaying a good/appropriate feel for rhythmic elements in music - specifically those elements that tend to be present in music that features syncopation. A person with a good sense of groove is going to be able to make me want to dance or, at the very least, move some part of my body.

 

[bass12]

You say, "feel", I say "microtiming" as some rhythmic nuance, etc...
Who is correct?
From one thesis on "Formalized Grooving".
View attachment 2872681
Or maybe, this description.
View attachment 2872685


Next.
I've commented several times on mambo4's promotion of Victor Wooten's "Groove workshop".
To me, Music starts with Mood, Character, Attitude, etc..., even though, I am a big Groove/Swing "hobbyist" and would put any groove under my "microscope" for analysis.

I'd say we're both right. And I think any aspect of music is worth analysing and discussing. A lot of this stuff is not written in stone and that's part of what makes it fun to contemplate. Regarding the excerpts from the thesis that you posted, I think a lot of what gives one the ability to "groove" in one style of music but not necessarily in another is more a matter of vocabulary than anything else. In other words, it's really all about listening to the music enough to be able to reproduce it with the appropriate vocabulary (which is part of what, I think, informes "feel"). Sure, you can explain what to emphasize and how far ahead or behind the beat to play, but there's no substitute for listening to a given musical style if you want the desired result.

 

[csc2048b]

I strongly agree with Jeff Berlin. And I like Jonas Hellborg's take on 'groove' too:

 

[JeffBerlin]

Great post, Jeff. That word "groove" gets thrown around pretty recklessly here on TB, impulsively and instantly used as some kind of moral or musical high ground, the be-all, cure-all for whatever ails your playing. It's almost a bad cliche on the level of "best bass for metal."

Thanks for eloquently putting it in perspective and giving players another way to think about it.

I appreciate your comment. Sometimes thing really are that simple and don't need anything more today about it but to learn from that uncomplicated truth.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I have written a book on the subject and I came up with specific elements that are essentials in a groove and playing only the right notes is not a guarantee in the success of a efficient bass part.

YES, YES, and YES!

Every notes we play should have life in it. It's that simple.

Yes.
In my world, Music starts with Mood, Character, Attitude, etc...

All the right notes in a bass part mean nothing

Yes. Try to program just "the right notes in the right places" and then listen to it.

technique have very little to do in this.

Sorry, dear Groove Master, but I totally disagree with you.

Is that bass line right? No! I guarantee you that it will not be because no attention is put on the feel, the time, the groove and the sound of it and the swing impact of the bass part and the role of the bass in that style for example, only the notes which is a big mistake in the success of a swinging and efficient baseline IMO.

Yes!

 

[bass12]

View attachment 2872919

View attachment 2872920

Here is my statement about Teaching/Learning groove.
How can a teacher start teaching GROOVE if our current Musical Theory Industry cannot describe what GROOVE is?



In other words, not just "listening" but carefully learning Music Content in order to widen and internalize (the brain power) lots of Music(al) content, but...
How can a "less-prepared" beginner bass player properly groove without solid knowledge of the instrument?
There are Millions of Teenagers dancing in the clubs, discotheques, with all those "grooving" dance moves but THEY are NOT good Bass players.

That would depend on what you mean by "solid knowledge of the instrument". I think there has to be a degree of comfort on the instrument but "knowledge" in the way that Jeff seems to be advocating? I don't think so. There have been plenty of people, for example, without a shred of theoretical knowledge who can't even name the notes on the fingerboard who have grooved on bass. Regarding dancers, how often have you really observed people dancing? Most people are not good dancers! Trust me, I DJed for fifteen years and saw my share. But yes, I think that someone who displays a good sense of groove on the dancefloor will be more likely to groove on bass than someone who has no groove on the dancefloor. As for teaching "groove" - I'm not sure how possible it is to do that. What I think is possible is drawing one's attention to factors that can get in the way of a groove but, ultimately, a person who is not receptive to those groove-oriented elements in the music (as a listener) is probably not going to reproduce them very well. It's like someone with no taste buds trying to cook. Sure, you can follow a recipe and maybe get close, but the subtleties that, in the end, make all the difference are likely to be missed.

You do have a point regarding terminology: it certainly helps when everyone involved can agree on the meaning of the terms being discussed.