Groove Isn't The First Element of Bass Playing. It is Last!

[JeffBerlin]

Like Victor Wooten?

I feel that it is important to remember that being a fan of a musician is different than benefitting from their lessons. We who play and teach may have found a great way to play but this doesn't mean that we know how to teach.

Bass fans trust without question the lessons that come from their favorite bass players. people that they see as being incapable of being wrong in their philosophies of teaching. The trick for people is to not be a fan when you receive learning advice from us. What makes people so certain that what we are teaching actually will help you to improve as bass players?

My advice is to question us all. You are making an unwise choice if you don't because few accept advice blindly without making sure that the advice has some basis of fact connected with it.

Go to music history itself and see if the points of teaching that we offer have appeared before. Then check to see who in music history benefitted from them. If you find that few to none have, then I would ignore the advice that we bass teachers offer to learn with. If you find that many have benefitted from lessons and principles that we teach, then you can be confident in the methods.

 

[DavidEdenAria]

When bass teachers started offering lessons and discussions about groove, in essence, they were focusing on a subject that wasn't that important to focus on. In the past, barely anyone in education mentioned it. In live playing or recording, it was too obvious a thing to bring up, sort of like telling a driver to focus on stepping on the brakes when they wanted to slow down a car.

I was a trained trumpet player in school.....all written music played exactly as written.

Groove? Emotion? Never heard either of those terms mentioned....ever.....How do you define those terms exactly?

 

[csc2048b]

Bass fans trust without question the lessons that come from their favorite bass players. people that they see as being incapable of being wrong in their philosophies of teaching. The trick for people is to not be a fan when you receive learning advice from us. What makes people so certain that what we are teaching actually will help you to improve as bass players?

It's not just you - i've never read or heard the greats like Ron Carter, Ray Brown or Scot La Faro refer to 'groove' in any of their interviews, articles, lessons or videos - in their context, it would've been 'swing' but they reserved that more for the drummer. Before the term 'groove' was thrown around, Jamerson would've referred to it as the pocket' and he would likely agree:

how could one play in the pocket of the song if one didn't have the actual bass parts nailed?

My advice is to question us all.

I'm too busy enjoying your music so i'll leave that to others. Looking forward to more releases from you in 2018 and beyond.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I was a trained trumpet player in school.....all written music played exactly as written.

Groove? Emotion? Never heard either of those terms mentioned....ever.....How do you define those terms exactly?

Bass teachers made it up. Sorry, but they did! Not the word, but the teaching of it. In my opinion, teaching groove has lowered the quality of bass education because the time that could be spent teaching something that actually improves your playing is used teaching something that won't.

 

[SteveCS]

Bass teachers made it up. Sorry, but they did! Not the word, but the teaching of it. In my opinion, teaching groove has lowered the quality of bass education because the time that could be spent teaching something that actually improves your playing is used teaching something that won't.

Precisely and eloquently put, IMHO!
Groove, by any definition, seems to me to be an outcome, not a component. It is, perhaps a function, greater than the sum of parts that fall into two general types.

There are the objective ones, inter alia - the right notes in the right order at the right time with the right dynamics, articulation, tone etc,. All of those things can be taught.

Then there are the others that cannot be readily or objectively taught - the human expression/group interaction part. Sure a teacher can expose the student to opportunities, but the student must discover things for themselves, ie they must be learned through personal experience of playing with others, playing to audiences (including hostile ones!) - 'paying your dues' as they used to say.

Finally, none of this matters without the glue - sufficient intimacy with the instrument gained through personal practice to actually execute the music, within the context of a setting, in real time. Only then can groove happen.

YMMV.

 

[Quinn Roberts]

The fuss about metronomes and grooving; such small potatos in life. It's like debating about which comes first.. walking or chewing gum. Learning theory and gaining knowledge is of course vital on the path to improvement, but the rest of the issues are just sweating stuff that doesn't matter.

You shouldn't give babies or toddlers gum ya know!

 

[JeffBerlin]

No comment. Just pictures.

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Showing that Marcus is trained in music is a powerful statement to share with people that being taught music-only is the most logical and beneficial manner to teach by. Teaching slap is in my opinion a downward step in educating bass players because it caters to their musical wants, not their musical needs. Also, I think that it would be extremely difficult to fine even one slap bass teacher who can state that their skills were founded in a music school to where they became qualified to teach it. Practically all slappers are self taught in the style. If slap teachers proved that slap is best learned as a self taught process, isn't this the most important lessons that they can teach you? And since they can do it, why can't you!

 

[JeffBerlin]

i simply ignore those who dispute Jeff and Jonas.

I understand your feelings. But I want to advise people, not ignore them. I believe that in disputing my views (please forgive me) some are acting out of anger for reading or hearing my contradictory comments that go against what you may have heard about learning from bass players or schools that you trust. Where I feel that people are making a mistake is that some have regarded name schools, bass players that teach, popular websites, and other sources of bass education as utterly incapable of being wrong in their teaching philosophies. Being in error in how to teach doesn't in any way compromise their marvelous bass talents and their loving manner to embrace their audience and fans.

Yet, it is here in the trust of reputation over qualification that people seem to be swayed. This is why today's bass community isn't what it could have been, a vibrant musical group of players skilled in the true language of music while also being involved in the pursuit of the true sources of musical expression, time, tone, taste, beauty and spirit, not to mention a few hundred bucks extra each well just because you know how to read a chart.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Showing that Marcus Miller is trained in music is a powerful statement to share with people that being taught music-only is the most logical and beneficial manner to teach by. Teaching slap is in my opinion a downward step in educating bass players because it caters to their musical wants, not their musical needs. Also, I think that it would be extremely difficult to fine even one slap bass teacher who can state that their skills were founded in a music school to where they became qualified to teach it. Practically all slappers are self taught in the style. If slap players/teachers proved that slap is best learned as a self taught process, isn't this the most important lessons that they can teach you? And since they can do it, why can't you!

 

[JeffBerlin]

No comment. Just pictures.

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and

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Showing that Marcus Miller is trained in music is a powerful statement to share with people that being taught music-only is the most logical and beneficial manner to teach by. Teaching slap is in my opinion a downward step in educating bass players because it caters to their musical wants, not their musical needs. Also, I think that it would be extremely difficult to fine even one slap bass teacher who can state that their skills were founded in a music school to where they became qualified to teach it. Practically all slappers are self taught in the style. If slap players/teachers proved that slap is best learned as a self taught process, isn't this the most important lessons that they can teach you?

 

[mobdirt]

i learnt slap-pull bass from a mel bay book

 

[JeffBerlin]

i learnt slap-pull bass from a mel bay book

I am curious! If there was no Mel Bay book to teach you how to use your thumb, do you feel that you wouldn't have learned how to slap?

 

[mobdirt]

I am curious! If there was no Mel Bay book to teach you how to use your thumb, do you feel that you wouldn't have learned how to slap?

I think i would have learned it some other way but it would not be the same, i would not be slapping the way i do if it was some other way especially because those were the formative years, days when you couldn't put the bass down

 

[gjohnson441496]

Groovy...




Not so much groovy...

 

[consectaneus]

I'm reminded of that (Bass Player?) article by Anthony Jackson. He likened slap to ketchup. There was even a little graphic accompanying the editorial showing a bottle of ketchup with a thumb on the label. The analogy was pretty clear. He thought of slap the same way people use ketchup, a quick way to add flavor to something bland.

Anyway...
A long time ago I bought a video called the Slap Bass Program by Alexis Sklaevski of the Musician's Institute. It's probably still a classic of instruction. Very well made. He achieved a high degree of manual dexterity and syncopation. Now, it's obviously possible for some to figure this out for themselves, but isn't that what instruction is for? Taking advantage of the knowledge of those who have blazed a trail before you?

Incidentally, Flea made some fun of the video because Sklarevski looks like and accountant--not funky looking at all. The belief was that this should not be an academic pursuit learned in an classroom setting. Like the "funk" had to be earned and hard won through living the life or feeling it, or some other B.S. Of course it can be learned. The mechanics of it is physical.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I think i would have learned it some other way but it would not be the same, i would not be slapping the way i do if it was some other way especially because those were the formative years, days when you couldn't put the bass down

I like that you mentioned that your slap wouldn't be the same. In a self taught experience, one's playing rarely is the same as anyone else's.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I'm reminded of that (Bass Player?) article by Anthony Jackson. He likened slap to ketchup. There was even a little graphic accompanying the editorial showing a bottle of ketchup with a thumb on the label. The analogy was pretty clear. He thought of slap the same way people use ketchup, a quick way to add flavor to something bland.

Anyway...
A long time ago I bought a video called the Slap Bass Program by Alexis Sklaevski of the Musician's Institute. It's probably still a classic of instruction. Very well made. He achieved a high degree of manual dexterity and syncopation. Now, it's obviously possible for some to figure this out for themselves, but isn't that what instruction is for? Taking advantage of the knowledge of those who have blazed a trail before you?

Incidentally, Flea made some fun of the video because Sklarevski looks like and accountant--not funky looking at all. The belief was that this should not be an academic pursuit learned in an classroom setting. Like the "funk" had to be earned and hard won through living the life or feeling it, or some other B.S. Of course it can be learned. The mechanics of it is physical.

Your post makes sense but needs one point of clarity in my view! Taking advantage of the knowledge of those that blazed a trail before you is one thing. Being instructed in a style of music that has been self taught by the people that make videos or write books is another. If watching a video helps you to play in this style, Youtube has many sections to choose from. Plus, they are free! I simply regard spending money to attend a class to learn slap as throwing away your money. It might or might not take you a longer time to lear slap on your own. But it is precisely in the often clumsy, unsure, and bumpy self taught experience where some of the most illuminating musical results can happen. I would point to any slapper that one can think of to show that this point has already been demonstrated.

 

[Groove Master]

I've just wanted to make sure that your comment is not misconstrued.
In my childhood days while performing classical music, I was required to show much more "life" than playing any groove later; therefore,
let's make clear that any music must have "life" in it! Saying that only GROOVE can have "life in it" is misleading.
I've clearly understood your point about GROOVE (as some expressive timing/dynamically-nuanced rhythmical rendition of a "phrase"), but I wanted to make sure that there was NO misunderstanding about performing music with "life" in it.

It is not what I said. Groove is life because musicality is Music. It is another definition for "groove". And "groove" seems to be a word that too many musicians mis-used when trying to describe it....

 

[Fred W]

I'd like to discuss the etymology of the word groove as it applies to music. There are quite a few "slang" phrases that entered the lexicon via jazz musicians. Having created a new music with European and African roots, but no real antecedent, a new nomenclature was needed. No more Italian words.
Groove is narrow and extremely precise. It describes a condition where it takes more energy to change than to stay where you are. Phonograph records were a recent and exciting invention, capturing live performance in an easily used format. No wonder jazz musicians used this word to describe the feeling of playing in tempo, with everyone agreeing on the center of One, without a conductor. When you achieve this performance state it is very difficult to change the tempo on command. How many of us have had the experience of a leader counting out a tempo that was not totally sincere and then trying to change it a few bars in?
To me there are two components to a groove. First is steady tempo. But that alone is not enough. There has to be an expectation in the mind of all listening that the next ONE will arrive on time, on schedule, as sure as the sunrise.
That is what groove means, to me. The word has been co-opted to mean any style of music performed correctly. I just played at a rehearsal Samuel Barber's Adagio for Strings. A violist complained, "I can't hear the pulse" to which many replied, "there is none". The greatest performance in history, of that piece, would not be groovy.

 

[gjohnson441496]

Adagio For Strings - With a Pulse