Has your opinion of JHS pedals changed?

[40Hz]

This should be an early morning "wake up" mantra to so many people...

You betcha.

The thing is, I’ve heard about the JHS “bad behavior” thing for awhile now like most of us have. But I realized after reading a few posts here that I never bothered to look into the actual specifics of the story, and I pretty much just took it as read that it was all true. Which is why I politely asked the two more vociferous posters here if they could direct me towards something with more concrete details. And they have. So now I’ve got some research and digging to do.

 

[Bassist4Eris]

You betcha.

The thing is, I’ve heard about the JHS “bad behavior” thing for awhile now like most of us have. But I realized after reading a few posts here that I never bothered to look into the actual specifics of the story, and I pretty much just took it as read that it was all true. Which is why I politely asked the two more vociferous posters here if they could direct me towards something with more concrete details. And they have. So now I’ve got some research and digging to do.

When you get done with those links, here's a counterpoint. Again, I don't know which side to believe. The People Vs. JHS Pedals (UPDATED)

 

[40Hz]

When you get done with those links, here's a counterpoint. Again, I don't know which side to believe. The People Vs. JHS Pedals (UPDATED)

Thx for the link.

I get the feeling not knowing which side to believe is pretty much where I’ll end up at the end of this exercise too.

 

[BurtMacklinFBI]

Nope. His YouTube channel is okay, he puts some good stuff up there. I never really bought into the JHS hate and still don’t, but at the same time I don’t have any particular love for his pedals either. In my experience they’re fine, but nothing that gets me really excited.

 

[magyk8ball]

Not sure on the hate thing with JHS, but the muffuletta is a pretty awesome value and a great pedal. And im seriously interested in the bonsai as well.

And really, kudos to Josh and his youtube channel for putting out pedal related videos that arent just demos of his own brand.
I really enjoyed the behringer video. Mostly enjoyed that it wasnt bashing the quality of the behringer vs his own stuff. Was surprised at how close most of the behringer stuff was to the originals, but at so much lower cost.

 

[MCS4]

Again, I don't know which side to believe.

I think it depends in part on what components of the story you or any other person finds to be important. A lot of it is up to conjecture and debate, obviously.

But if someone takes the position that a pedal builder shouldn't copy circuits from other small pedal builders without permission or credit, then it isn't conjecture or debate... you just need a person with pedal-building knowledge to look at the circuits. I'm not saying I know the answer here personally, as I am not qualified to compare pedal circuits, but this is a purely objective question that should have a true/false answer.

That said, if someone doesn't care if smaller pedal builders copy circuits, then the rest is much more amorphous.

 

[Honkey tonk]

Music equipment has some odd lines drawn for its intellectual property , personally would love to see
A modern take for legalities concerning gear copyrights .
what is considered libel In the realm of the interweebs?
That said his show is pretty awesome

 

[Mosfed]

In the fuzz world, JHS has done some dirty stuff. So, for those that don’t know...

It is one thing to clone older circuits and quite another to clone circuits from newer pedals still in production (like when Spencer ripped off Darkglass).
JHS took Devi Ever’s Hyperion circuit, and made not one single change or improvement (there are actually mistakes in the way she designed the circuit) and called it the Astro Mess. It’s marketing said he designed it specifically for the band Seitchfoot and they were endorsing the pedal. When it was discovered that JHS had ripped off Devi and duped Switchfoot he didn’t apologize and in fact,Josh tried to convince retailers to drop Devi.

There are other examples of Josh using DIY circuits that the designers released for the DIY community via Creative Commons or something - in fact he has actually used a Madbean PCB in his own pedal and called it original.

Here is an older list of pedals JHS has called their own but in fact are other’s designs:
Angry Charlie - MI Audio Crunch Box
Astro Mess - Devi Ever Hyperion
Bunrunner - Devi Ever Hyperion / Tone Bender
Charlie Brown - BSIAB diy circuit from general guitar gadgets
Mini Foot - Bazz Fuss diy circuit
Mr. Magic - Zvex Super Hard On
4 Wheeler Bass Fuzz - Zvex Wooly Mammoth

I have no respect for that guy/company.

THIS is the point. Not that he cloned a few circuits but his reaction and lies when people called him out on his crap.

The guy is a piece of work. But hey the Vertex guy is back in business so clearly people have no memory.

 

[Mosfed]

Is any if this actually documented?

Or is it just various community supporters and fanboys propagating stories they heard from someone who heard from someone who heard from someone?

I only ask because, as I look into more and more stories about dirty deeds in the pedal and pickup world (where there’s very little originality and mainly endless minor riffs on circuits found in circuit encyclopedias dating back to the early days of solid state audio or today’s manufacture’s sample circuit sheets) there’s usually little or nothing to support the contentions that either: (a) anything was all that original to begin with, or (b) stolen.

So beyond the rumors and “good stories” we read or hear on the web, is there anything concrete and verifiable (and actual legal actions taken) to back things like this up? Or is it just the usual “let’s try it in the court of public opinion since we don’t have actual proof or a real leg to stand on” type thing that’s become far too common these days? An accusation doesn’t establish proof. An assertion isn’t a fact. A belief in something, or its repetition, doesn’t make it so.

Not trying to give you a hard time. But lately I’ve started fact checking a lot of things I’m reading now that disinformation and misinformation has become closer to the norm on the web. And now I’m seriously curious about JHS in that Bob Keeley, Brian Wampler, and a bunch of the other heavyweights in the pedal industry seem to respect and get along with Josh Scott just fine. And it strikes me as odd they would if he were the pariah you’ve made him out to be.

So maybe you can help me out in understanding the actual facts in the case by pointing me to something besides the usual hearsay? Because, as I said earlier, it would be very strange indeed (at least to me) that JHS isn’t vilified and shunned throughout the industry if what you posted was the actual case.

Thx!

Yes it’s all documented and there were even court cases around it.

 

[HelpImaRock]

I think it depends in part on what components of the story you or any other person finds to be important. A lot of it is up to conjecture and debate, obviously.

But if someone takes the position that a pedal builder shouldn't copy circuits from other small pedal builders without permission or credit, then it isn't conjecture or debate... you just need a person with pedal-building knowledge to look at the circuits. I'm not saying I know the answer here personally, as I am not qualified to compare pedal circuits, but this is a purely objective question that should have a true/false answer.

That said, if someone doesn't care if smaller pedal builders copy circuits, then the rest is much more amorphous.

The problem with the “ZOMG CLONERS!” argument is the entire industry is built on cloning and slight variations. A tweed Fender Bassman is just a tweaked RCA circuit. A Marshall is the same thing with British parts. A RAT is an MXR Distortion + with a different op amp, silicon diodes, and a low pass filter. An Arion Chorus is a cheaply made BOSS CE-2. Etc, etc.

Unless you’re Vertex, buying BBE wahs and relabeling then, or Mooer who copy/pasted EHX’s code, including their copyright code, into their pedals; there’s very little stealing in the musical instruments industry.

And if we should be outraged that someone copied and/or modified an analog circuit, we’ve all got a ton of stuff to sell.

 

[markjazzbassist]

Or it shows he’s getting paid by BBE and Behringer to create demand where there isn’t any.

yeah he says in the behringer video so, and his love for behringer pedals and sales pitch on them was a complete turn off.

In the fuzz world, JHS has done some dirty stuff. So, for those that don’t know...

It is one thing to clone older circuits and quite another to clone circuits from newer pedals still in production (like when Spencer ripped off Darkglass).
JHS took Devi Ever’s Hyperion circuit, and made not one single change or improvement (there are actually mistakes in the way she designed the circuit) and called it the Astro Mess. It’s marketing said he designed it specifically for the band Seitchfoot and they were endorsing the pedal. When it was discovered that JHS had ripped off Devi and duped Switchfoot he didn’t apologize and in fact,Josh tried to convince retailers to drop Devi.

There are other examples of Josh using DIY circuits that the designers released for the DIY community via Creative Commons or something - in fact he has actually used a Madbean PCB in his own pedal and called it original.

Here is an older list of pedals JHS has called their own but in fact are other’s designs:
Angry Charlie - MI Audio Crunch Box
Astro Mess - Devi Ever Hyperion
Bunrunner - Devi Ever Hyperion / Tone Bender
Charlie Brown - BSIAB diy circuit from general guitar gadgets
Mini Foot - Bazz Fuss diy circuit
Mr. Magic - Zvex Super Hard On
4 Wheeler Bass Fuzz - Zvex Wooly Mammoth

I have no respect for that guy/company.

yep this all day. i will not buy a JHS pedal, no thank you. Another thing i can't stand is his very misleading marketing. The JHS colour box is a neve studio channel. Just because you stick a transformer into a box with EQ does not make it a neve. Classic neve's never used Lundahl, they used Marinar and St Ives transformers. The EQ is also all wrong, the whole circuit has LITERALLY nothing to do with a Neve. Honestly i think it could be a cool pedal. but the BS marketing from a studio gear junkie like myself has me turned off.

 

[Bob_Ross]

Well, up until ~6 months ago I’d never even heard of the company.

But then in fairly rapid succession:
- a guitarist I work with showed up with two different JHS pedals in his rig (neither of which seems to do anything particularly notable...at least not yet)
- someone gifted me a JHS Angry Charlie v2, which I have yet to try out
- I came across this thread

So yeah, you could say my opinion changed...and the more I read in this thread it seems to be changing more!

 

[Leonid Nidis]

I play bass I dont know what pedals are

 

[JohnArnson]

In the fuzz world, JHS has done some dirty stuff. So, for those that don’t know...

It is one thing to clone older circuits and quite another to clone circuits from newer pedals still in production (like when Spencer ripped off Darkglass).
JHS took Devi Ever’s Hyperion circuit, and made not one single change or improvement (there are actually mistakes in the way she designed the circuit) and called it the Astro Mess. It’s marketing said he designed it specifically for the band Seitchfoot and they were endorsing the pedal. When it was discovered that JHS had ripped off Devi and duped Switchfoot he didn’t apologize and in fact,Josh tried to convince retailers to drop Devi.

There are other examples of Josh using DIY circuits that the designers released for the DIY community via Creative Commons or something - in fact he has actually used a Madbean PCB in his own pedal and called it original.

Here is an older list of pedals JHS has called their own but in fact are other’s designs:
Angry Charlie - MI Audio Crunch Box
Astro Mess - Devi Ever Hyperion
Bunrunner - Devi Ever Hyperion / Tone Bender
Charlie Brown - BSIAB diy circuit from general guitar gadgets
Mini Foot - Bazz Fuss diy circuit
Mr. Magic - Zvex Super Hard On
4 Wheeler Bass Fuzz - Zvex Wooly Mammoth

I have no respect for that guy/company.

If this is true the man is both a thief and a fraud, not something I would wish to support.

 

[MCS4]

The problem with the “ZOMG CLONERS!” argument is the entire industry is built on cloning and slight variations. A tweed Fender Bassman is just a tweaked RCA circuit. A Marshall is the same thing with British parts. A RAT is an MXR Distortion + with a different op amp, silicon diodes, and a low pass filter. An Arion Chorus is a cheaply made BOSS CE-2. Etc, etc.

Well, that's obviously something that is subject to different opinions. I don't deny that there is a lot of copying in the music industry, so I do understand your point. However, to me, there is a meaningful difference between a small builder getting started by taking a classic, best-selling pedal and trying to improve upon the idea, versus the small builder making a direct copy of an even smaller builder's unique pedal and reselling it with no modifications, no permission, and no credit to the original builder.

Is that what happened here? I don't claim to personally know. But to me, if that did happen, it is something that would trouble me more than someone making yet another Tube Screamer clone.

 

[willsellout]

I've had many interactions with Josh Scott while I worked at Sweetwater. Nice enough guy. I really liked a few of his pedals on bass. He has a crazy passion for effects and the history.

 

[J-Mags]

Well, that's obviously something that is subject to different opinions. I don't deny that there is a lot of copying in the music industry, so I do understand your point. However, to me, there is a meaningful difference between a small builder getting started by taking a classic, best-selling pedal and trying to improve upon the idea, versus the small builder making a direct copy of an even smaller builder's unique pedal and reselling it with no modifications, no permission, and no credit to the original builder.

Is that what happened here? I don't claim to personally know. But to me, if that did happen, it is something that would trouble me more than someone making yet another Tube Screamer clone.

That's pretty much what happened, with some added twists and turns that further enraged the previous pedal maker.

I am a loyalists to one of the pedal makers who claims that JHS stole their designs, so I"ll admit my bias. I think that, in terms of "stealing" circuits, what he does is not that different from what most pedal makers do. But I do think that in that case, he took a circuit from a very small pedal maker who was struggling, didn't really mod it, doubled the price, and then promoted it as a more ethical alternative to the original pedal. So the original designer has a right to be pissed.

I do like his videos and watch them without rancor, because he's basically a fan of all pedals. But I don't own any of his pedals and probably won't in the future.

 

[40Hz]

Yes it’s all documented and there were even court cases around it.

I’m digging through whatever source material I’m able to find today. It’s interesting what I’m mostly seeing. Lots of innuendo. Some questionable claims from unreliable sources. The whole Internet thing. I’ll reserve any judgement or further comment until I’m done.

BTW, if you have any links to the actual court cases I’d be grateful if you could share them. I’d rather not have to ask an attorney friend for help with that since an actual search through a professional legal search engine costs $$$. And I’m not sure he could do it as a favor to a friend. The TOS on those services is usually restricted to your own professional use. Thx!

Addenda: the only lawsuit that readily popped up against a ‘JHS’ in my quick Google search was a lawsuit Gibson brought against a builder John Hornby Skewes (JHS) for the same trademark infringement type claims they’re currently going against Dean and Luna for. (FYI: Gibson had that case end up having part of it summarily dismissed by the court for lack of merit in case anybody’s following their most recent legal maneuverings. Didn’t bother seeing where the rest of it went since it’s not germane to the subject of JHS pedals.)

 

[krfoss]

Any beef about stealing designs should also be extended to all those companies who are making jazz basses and p basses and making obvious copies. They make "improvements" on the designs too, but no one says anything. If jhs is making an improvement on the pedal circuit that people like or want, why not.

 

[BigAlBass69]

I must say I really enjoy my JHS Moonshine V2 Overdrive and distortion. Plays very well on bass and does not get muddy at the lower notes. There is no doubt that we can all learn something from Josh's videos ad they are a plethora of history of the entire pedal industry. That is fact.

Impressions are based on individual's experiences and personal biases. There really is opinion, whether based on fact or fiction. Unfortunately the Internet seems to favor the latter as it gets more reads and "likes".