I am over-invested. I have three basses and a small amp. I was thinking about scaling back anyway, so I will sell off two of them, practice, and see if another gig pops up.Don't sell your gear. Keep practicing.
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^This.^ . . . My best bass is a Squier, my playing stinks out loud and still people are always trying to rope me into playing situations
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Help me out here. AITA?
- Thread starter Anjohl
- Start date
THIS is a friend worth listening to. Spot on. If we, as professional musicians, don't assign any monetary value to our work, why should anyone else? It's hard enough convincing the general populace, much less club owners, that we do much more than just "play," and that "playing" takes a ton of work, years of dedication, and no small amount of investment in our instruments and gear. I have zero patience for amateurs who devalue our craft by playing for little or nothing, undercutting current price structures at gigs, or whatever. That's a battle I've fought over and over, nicely of course, with colleagues, venue owners, agents, private parties.. you name it.... for almost five decades. "Yeah, the gig only pays $500 for a quartet, and we've been doing it for a year every month, but I really want to add another horn. Is everyone OK with taking $100?" The answer, sadly, is NO, and it can be hard to say that, especially if the prospective fifth member is a great player and would be a gas to have on stage with us. However, if we start giving more for less, then more for less becomes the new norm.
I played a Sunday brunch gig for a very long time up in Potsdam, NY, at an establishment owned by .. well, never mind. He owned a good many of the town's businesses. Anyway..... the gig started out at X dollars for Y hours, and we were welcome to enjoy the brunch fare and beverages gratis. The owner approached us after a few months and asked us to play a little longer, for no extra bread, so he could extend the brunch hours and make some more dough. We reluctantly agreed... he usually treated us pretty well. Soo... now the gig was X dollars for Y+1 hours. Then, a few weeks later... "Man, I'm not making enough.... Can you guys take a little less bread?".... It was a good gig, the band was great, we all loved doing it, so we reluctantly agreed; Now the gig was X-1 bread for Y+1 hours. You can probably guess the next steps... every few weeks, "I've gotta ask you guys to pay for your drinks".... then.."I'm sorry, I can't afford to feed you anymore...." We started referring to the gig as "The Incredible Shrinking Lunch." Then another band offered to play the gig for less money, and we were out after more than a year. We shouldn't have agreed to the first reduction, to be honest.
I was in my early 20s at the time. Lesson learned, and never needed to repeat it, although I still have to occasionally....ahem.... elucidate the concept to some very gifted, enthusiastic colleagues who aren't always the best business folks. As players, we need to be BOTH amateurs (those who play for the love of their art) and professionals (those who require compensation for their work). If one is solely an amateur, without any desire or need for payment, then one should be respectful enough of those who make their living as musicians to confine their enjoyment of performing to charity functions, get-togethers with friends, and purely social occasions. Stay out of commercial establishments, with exceptions for "Open Mic" nights and various other sessions (provided that there is a core host band being paid by the venue).
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This was honestly what really set me off. We have been playing some of the original songs at The Patio that he played at the paying gig this past weekend (that I take was a *very* well paying gig from the impression I got from Evan), which he jumped at, taking the drummer I had helped him build the comfort up with, with his son on bass, without even mentioning it to me. It left me feeling like I was a free fill in, helping him develop the chemistry with the drummer for gigs not involving me.
Sweet Jesus, some of this really hits home. He definitely has a way of deflecting concerns, and then retreating to some variation of "well I am am going to keep playing, you can come if you like". I have since found out from a *very* reliable friend that's a full time gigging pro that Frank has a bad reputation for both his skill level, and for playing for little or nothing.
I am not sure if you read my update above, but the venue owner of the bar my solo and duo act (with me on vocals and guitar, with a second guitarist when in a duo) contacted me out of the blue today while I was dealing with this trash. It was a bit of a moment of clarity, and I decided to decouple my musical destiny from Frank. No hard feeling, I am chalking it up to a combination of Frank being Frank, and frankly (lol) me not being assertive enough upfront/being somewhat naïve.
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Every cloud has a silver lining.
If you have a musical connection with Frank, don't depart on bad terms.
Turn up on the Wednesday gig and use it to your advantage to hone your bass and stage skills.
In the mean time, direct your main focus on your solo gigs and let that slowly but surely "force" you out of this quirky relationship allowing you to step away gracefully.
If you have a musical connection with Frank, don't depart on bad terms.
Turn up on the Wednesday gig and use it to your advantage to hone your bass and stage skills.
In the mean time, direct your main focus on your solo gigs and let that slowly but surely "force" you out of this quirky relationship allowing you to step away gracefully.
Hurricane Jimmie
Supporting Member
So Anyway, many of us use The Gig Trifecta when it comes to decision making. Money (getting paid), Music (is it interesting), and Hang (are you having fun).
I usually have to have two of the three, although a LOT one would let me slide on the other two.
It doesn't sound like Frank is ready to hire you for a paying gig as a bass player. As a working pro, he's probably got a deep bench of seasoned/experienced bass contacts. And if you're competing with his son, that's another reason not to choose you.
If you're serious about developing your bass skills, let go of any pay/ego issues. Keep going to the open mic gig to learn but keep your time commitment in check. An important part of increasing your electric bass skills is playing out and learning songs. Perhaps the open mic will give you the chance to network and get other opportunities. And when an opportunity outside of Frank's realm presents itself, you're more likely to be ready for it.
But be ready for the gut punch if the band takes off and you're immediately replaced. It sucks, but sometimes that's what a working pro will do.
Good Luck to you.
I usually have to have two of the three, although a LOT one would let me slide on the other two.
It doesn't sound like Frank is ready to hire you for a paying gig as a bass player. As a working pro, he's probably got a deep bench of seasoned/experienced bass contacts. And if you're competing with his son, that's another reason not to choose you.
If you're serious about developing your bass skills, let go of any pay/ego issues. Keep going to the open mic gig to learn but keep your time commitment in check. An important part of increasing your electric bass skills is playing out and learning songs. Perhaps the open mic will give you the chance to network and get other opportunities. And when an opportunity outside of Frank's realm presents itself, you're more likely to be ready for it.
But be ready for the gut punch if the band takes off and you're immediately replaced. It sucks, but sometimes that's what a working pro will do.
Good Luck to you.
Glad it all worked out for your duo. Frank isn't your friend BTW.
For me the two "aha" moments in your story were:
1. When Frank wanted you to rehearse for open jam night. At that point it is no longer a jam, it is a band situation. That would have been the time to ask "so, if we're going to be a band what is the pay?"
2. When Frank books a "good paying gig" and didn't tell you about it, instead getting his son to play bass. THAT would have been the deal breaker. for me.
For me the two "aha" moments in your story were:
1. When Frank wanted you to rehearse for open jam night. At that point it is no longer a jam, it is a band situation. That would have been the time to ask "so, if we're going to be a band what is the pay?"
2. When Frank books a "good paying gig" and didn't tell you about it, instead getting his son to play bass. THAT would have been the deal breaker. for me.
Lots of things in this story that don’t make sense, but assuming it’s all true, even if you play for free (which you shouldn’t), The tips should definitely be split. I pay the people who play for me a flat fee, but I also split the tips with them and if tips are light, I don’t take a share myself.
You’re so worried about offending Frank, but he doesn’t appear have any problem using you. This is not a friendship.
You’re so worried about offending Frank, but he doesn’t appear have any problem using you. This is not a friendship.
This whole thing is crazy, I hate people who play for free unless it is a charity event. You really need to learn how to read people. Bar owners are always nice when they think they have you, think how nice they would be to the beer distributors if they got their beer for free. People think musicians should provide their services for free because there are way too many musicians that provide their services for free!
Yeah, honestly, I am happy that this happened now before things got too far along. I feel like my "main" act as a singer/guitarist is moving in the right direction, and the last thing I want to do is establish a negative reputation just to do an elaborate "band roleplay". If that means I don't get to play bass often/at all, so be it.
Thanks for all the advice guys, even the "tough love" I needed to hear.
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I 100% agree. No bad feelings on my part *other* than me feeling hurt that he didn't offer me that gig. But I think that's more my preconceived notions talking than anything.
I don't think I did. I suspect I will end up down there playing on bass and a drum machine here and there. In some ways, those gigs were funner than having an actual drummer, and we both knew what it was.
I likely will, though I doubt there will be a drummer going forward.
I am right there with you. I am not going to get involved with anything involving him musically going forward beyond an open mic/jam style deal where I show up when I want, and play and go home. Lesson learned. Ultimately, this was all my fault for letting it go on as long as it did. I guess I just finished the first module in Music Biz 101!
This right here is so key. I really have to wonder why the heck some dude is playing a mostly-empty room on an off night for no money. If it were a rehearsal for a band it wouldn't be ideal but at least you could justify his reasoning somewhat, but with no money and no hang why are you even there?
There are lots of ways to get experience and improve without giving away your services for free, and once you establish that your skill has no value it's incredibly difficult to suddenly up your rates! I've done my share, but in every case it was great music, a great hang, and we all went in with a clear understanding of the financials or lack thereof.
Hopefully this is a positive learning experience for the OP, and in the future he can consider the Gig Trifecta and it will raise some of these questions to mind earlier, before things get weird.
I wondered the same thing. I reached out to a bartender at The Patio I am pals with, and they confirmed acts are typically offered a $45 drink tab, or 10% of the bar sales, whatever's higher. This was all news to me. This is per act, so honestly wouldn't change much even if things hadn't gone so far south. But it makes me wonder if he played us, or got played himself.
Anyway, learning experience for sure. I have three basses total, which I clearly won't need two of for sure. I have a pending deal on one, and possibly one on the second. I'm going to keep my precious Mustang and keep on practicing until something surfaces.
Some bands do drink at gigs, sometimes quite a lot. But that's not really the point. Imagine taking your band/act/whatever and setting up and playing for $45.00. As someone said, if that's all the bar can afford they don't need live music.
And let's not forget that a $45 bar tab doesn't cost the bar $45 due to the markup.
No one I play with has more than 2 drinks, and definitely not playing impairing...those days have well and truly gone.
A) because you need to keep your license for gigs and
B) you need to keep your gigs.
so in our world, if you are offered a complimentary drink, you are grateful.
For non bar gigs, its almost a given you'll get get drinks and food .. but I'm getting paid, I can afford to buy my own..and besides its giving sonething back over the counter.
But yes, decent bookers look after you..by my definition.
I think we have established this is not a regular gig
Well, it's not really about the drinking...some bands drink and other bands may not drink...It's about basically not getting paid...playing for free.