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Help me out here. AITA?
- Thread starter Anjohl
- Start date
My thoughts too. That part never bothered me. I would have a beer just to have one, a Coke, and a few glasses of water.
Slight update, I went down to the cool open mic at another venue (on guitar/vocals) that I have not been able to attend because it conflicted with "band practice" and had a decent time. They have a strange stage setup that feels a little claustrophobic, and don't have a floor monitor, so I never felt 100% comfortable. I was also using a new guitar with a passive pickup that I am not used to EQ'ing. In hindsight, I wish I had just used the host's guitar.
Their crowd is a young one, half my age on average, and are mostly into modern country, which I don't do a ton of, so all of this combined for a performance that was.... not one of my best. I still had fun, and the one contemporary country tune I *did* do (Childer's Nose on the Grindstone, that I actually *heard* for the first time when someone played down there went over well.
I made a point to drop over to The Patio after, and Frank was there alone playing to 2 bartenders and one patron. I ended up staying for about an hour, and did backing vocals on 3-4 songs. I don't want there to be any hard feelings, and I don't think there are, beyond him maybe resenting that he had something that was "taken away" from him. But he's a big boy, he can deal with that himself. I have listed my most expensive Fender bass and my BOSS Bass Cube for sale, and have had a few nibbles. Current plan is to sell my Sire jazz also, and buy a small Fender Rumble to use with my Mustang as my entire rig while I improve my skill.
I am sure I will end up down there here and there with him on bass, but it will be on *my* time and prerogative.
OP - I'm glad to hear that you are, for lack of a better term, standing up for yourself to Frank. I think you are a much better friend to him, than he is to you. One thing I've observed over the years is that there is no shortage of pretty manipulative types among musicians. It's powerful to put someone under your thumb and make them feel like you are doing them a favor - and I feel like that's the place that Frank had you. It's easy to look up to someone and feel they are guiding you, when in reality, they may be using you. The tip money thing - it seems like no big deal. It's easy to shrug things like that off - but don't do it. Issues like that are symptoms of a greater disease. I mean - if someone is willing to short someone a few bucks out of the tip jar, how much of a stretch is it to imagine they will tell you are they aren't being paid for a weekly open jam slot? He's being paid for it - that's a virtual guarantee.
Don't get me started on the 'criticizing in public' thing. Unacceptable, unprofessional, sad, narcissistic type behavior.
Never sell yourself short, and don't play for free unless it's a donation to a cause you feel strongly about. Corollary: playing 'for drinks', is playing for free.
Don't get me started on the 'criticizing in public' thing. Unacceptable, unprofessional, sad, narcissistic type behavior.
Never sell yourself short, and don't play for free unless it's a donation to a cause you feel strongly about. Corollary: playing 'for drinks', is playing for free.
Yeah, these were more or less my conclusions as well, though I don't think there was as much malice in his acts as you laid out. Who knows, maybe I am still in denial. But it's over for now. I decided to decouple my musical destiny from him. No hard feelings for the most part, but I am just going to make sure we remain two independent entities. I still consider him a friend.
Ok, so this is starting to feel Python-esque in its absurdity!
The weekly "jam" at The Patio was cancelled last week due to a big Summer event happening the same day. Frank posted for this upcoming jam that he was being joined by Evan on drums, and a friend of his filling in on bass that I won't bring into the story. He also included in the post that they were looking for a bass player, and that there was "no money and no glory, but a chance to jam with the coolest musicians in town".
So just for badness, I *had* to message Evan. I did, and said "so you are going back down there?". He replied that he was, because he enjoyed playing with Frank, and that he only didn't go the week before because he had family in town.
You can't throw softballs like that at me.
It would be a *crime* to not smash it out of the park.
I replied:
"Well, that and the fact that you quit because you weren't getting paid".
I wished him luck with it.
So either the two of them conspired this whole thing to get me out without a confrontation, or they're just suckers for punishment? I have higher aspirations.
The solo acoustic/vocal show I did last week was my best performance ever IMHO, was definitely my best received, and was my best paying. My duo with a friend not in this story plays the same venue tomorrow night. I 100% made the correct choice.
The weekly "jam" at The Patio was cancelled last week due to a big Summer event happening the same day. Frank posted for this upcoming jam that he was being joined by Evan on drums, and a friend of his filling in on bass that I won't bring into the story. He also included in the post that they were looking for a bass player, and that there was "no money and no glory, but a chance to jam with the coolest musicians in town".
So just for badness, I *had* to message Evan. I did, and said "so you are going back down there?". He replied that he was, because he enjoyed playing with Frank, and that he only didn't go the week before because he had family in town.
You can't throw softballs like that at me.
It would be a *crime* to not smash it out of the park.
I replied:
"Well, that and the fact that you quit because you weren't getting paid".
I wished him luck with it.
So either the two of them conspired this whole thing to get me out without a confrontation, or they're just suckers for punishment? I have higher aspirations.
The solo acoustic/vocal show I did last week was my best performance ever IMHO, was definitely my best received, and was my best paying. My duo with a friend not in this story plays the same venue tomorrow night. I 100% made the correct choice.
just a word of advice since you have professional music goals of your own, just dump these guys. every town seems to have these few musicians that play for free and skip around from venue to venue, undercutting the musicians who actually expect to be paid and bring value to the table. inevitably they have a bad reputation and you don't want to be seen as a part of that crew. just the fact that he is advertising for the gig and asking people to play for free is really annoying to me.
It comes off to me as... kindof pathetic. As if he's resentful that anyone would expect to get paid for providing entertainment for a bar's patrons for 3+ hours. I honestly don't even know what to say.
There are guys like this that you need to move through and onwards. These are the guys that never do anything but these worthless gigs in various incarnations because its a gig. Only it isn't....its a jam and will never get beyond that and the guys involved never do much more.
I'm sure we've all some across these 'cool' types in our early playing years, but you need to get away from this 'scene' and not drag you down.
Ime, musicians who do things properly have nothing to do with them...and neither should you.
Back yourself, find a better scene of players and the red flag is whether they are set up properly and pay you because the venue values you as do the other players.
I'm sure we've all some across these 'cool' types in our early playing years, but you need to get away from this 'scene' and not drag you down.
Ime, musicians who do things properly have nothing to do with them...and neither should you.
Back yourself, find a better scene of players and the red flag is whether they are set up properly and pay you because the venue values you as do the other players.
For sure. I think part of it is my own insecurities, both musically, and in general. But those moments on stage, when my voice is doing what I know it can at my best, and that connection is there, all of that falls away. The trick is getting everything around it up to speed!
Sure...only not with these guys.
It ain't going to happen so the sooner you move on the better. imv
Case in point, ..when I came across the biggest red flag recently..volume..and realising the guys are too deaf to do anything about it..much less want to, then that made me realise all the little things I might be able to fix, are pointless wasting time on, when I'm not will to have to put in ears plugs for the first number.
Some things don't change and ime, your guys are one of them. Sure, don't fall out, but just be 'too busy'.. Leaves room for the very small chance they learn. Very small chance.
It ain't going to happen so the sooner you move on the better. imv
Case in point, ..when I came across the biggest red flag recently..volume..and realising the guys are too deaf to do anything about it..much less want to, then that made me realise all the little things I might be able to fix, are pointless wasting time on, when I'm not will to have to put in ears plugs for the first number.
Some things don't change and ime, your guys are one of them. Sure, don't fall out, but just be 'too busy'.. Leaves room for the very small chance they learn. Very small chance.
I'd want to know if he is asking you to play as part of the house band, or is he allowing you to play at the jam? There's a difference in expectation of pay and position between the two. If you're getting critiques in the middle of a performance, it sounds like this is more of an opportunity to learn to be a bass player rather than playing in his band. On the other hand, if he is giving you 30 songs and you're playing multiple hours as his bass player, then you should certainly ask for compensation. He might be giving the money gigs to other players, like his son, because he has more confidence in their abilities.
Hang in there, especially when you have a good friend to work with.
This is great experience and will definitely help you develop as a working musician.
Take advantage of it.
Good luck & have fun.
This is great experience and will definitely help you develop as a working musician.
Take advantage of it.
Good luck & have fun.
I suspect that there may be a small amount of money that he is either keeping for himself, or splitting with Evan. From a strategic POV, having a drummer he is tight with gives him access to a lot more gigs (case in point the festival gig they left me out of), and since his son plays bass, I could see him undervaluing bass players, since he can have his son fill in as needed.
I may join them here and there on my terms for a laugh, but no more 3 hour sets, no more homework, and no more technique critique on stage.
No way, no way I would ever play with this guy again. Life is way too short.
(I only skimmed pages 3-4 so this may have been covered, but: )
OP wrote that on a normal night the "crowd" would be 5-10 people, and 15-20 on a "rocking" night. How is that even going to pay for the running costs of the bar, not to mention musicians fees? Many posters speak of the value of musicians' contribution as marketable entertainment (and I'd be the last to belittle it), but in this case it sounds that either:
* the entertainment has not been succesfully marketed (and who should do this is a matter to be agreed between the establishment and the musicians)
* the entertainment is not valuable to the potential audience
* the bar itself is for some reason unpopular
In any case, with this level of audience demand (or the lack thereof) I don't see where the money to pay the musicians would be coming from .
AND as a disclaimer: I generally absolutely agree that no-one should play for free. But in a scenario where the number of people in the audience is less than 10 x the number of musicians on stage, the math does get quite difficult, and that needs to be addressed IMO.
OP wrote that on a normal night the "crowd" would be 5-10 people, and 15-20 on a "rocking" night. How is that even going to pay for the running costs of the bar, not to mention musicians fees? Many posters speak of the value of musicians' contribution as marketable entertainment (and I'd be the last to belittle it), but in this case it sounds that either:
* the entertainment has not been succesfully marketed (and who should do this is a matter to be agreed between the establishment and the musicians)
* the entertainment is not valuable to the potential audience
* the bar itself is for some reason unpopular
In any case, with this level of audience demand (or the lack thereof) I don't see where the money to pay the musicians would be coming from .
AND as a disclaimer: I generally absolutely agree that no-one should play for free. But in a scenario where the number of people in the audience is less than 10 x the number of musicians on stage, the math does get quite difficult, and that needs to be addressed IMO.
Very fair points. My understanding was that the bar was using the weekly live entertainment as part of an initiative to attract more customers. They are a small operation that have been around for several decades, and are incredibly frugal. They have been very artist-friendly in the past.
My SUSPICION is that Frank approached THEM about doing this, hoping that HE could "sell" them on it by building up an audience himself. So kindof like a "try before you buy" kindof deal. As I said earlier in the thread, I think he is looking for a de facto free rehearsal space to get reps in with a regular band that will take paid bookings elsewhere, see the festival gig that I was not offered. Again, I am just speculating here.
