If my speaker is only rated to 45hz do I need a HPF to tighten up my B string?

[agedhorse]

Apologies in advance if my question is slightly off topic. My cab (a Markbass NY122) has a frequency response of 45Hz-20kHz. How does it manage to reproduce a low E at 41Hz? And would a cab rated, say, 35Hz-20kHz, be truer to what an open E string sounds like and hence sound better?

PS. I asked this question a while ago in another forum but I'm not sure I understood the answer.

If you look at what the low E signal is comprised of, you will find that all of the harmonics exceed the level of the fundamental, so much of what you are hearing, even on a speaker flat below 40Hz, is mostly harmonics.

Even if the fundamental is present but much lower compared with the harmonics, the brain fills in the missing information so that you appear to hear the whole signal.

 

[micguy]

Apologies in advance if my question is slightly off topic. My cab (a Markbass NY122) has a frequency response of 45Hz-20kHz. How does it manage to reproduce a low E at 41Hz? And would a cab rated, say, 35Hz-20kHz, be truer to what an open E string sounds like and hence sound better?

PS. I asked this question a while ago in another forum but I'm not sure I understood the answer.

Part of this is specs. Your cabinet does something if you feed a low E into it - it's not that it's completely silent. The spec is also not well defined - Markbass says it goes down to 45 Hz, but with no limit specified - the likelihood when you don't see a limit is it's something like 10 dB down at 45 Hz. So, when you play a low F sharp (46 Hz-ish), what comes out has the fundamental of the note you're playing at about a tenth the power of higher frequencies - when you play a string, you not only get that frequency, but multiples of it. The octave of that note, because of the rolloff, will be much more prominent in the output than the fundamental. As 41 Hz is a bit lower, the fundamental there will be attenuated a bit more than at 45 Hz.

You also hear 82 Hz much better then you do 41 Hz. The upshot of this is you will hear a lot more 82 Hz (the octave up) than you will 41 Hz. But, the fact that the string also produces signal at 3 times the fundamental (123 Hz) gives your ear/brain combo information, to where you will kinda hear that the fundamental is there. It won't be nearly as solid or earth shaking as if it were capable of actually reproducing 41 Hz (a good PA can do that), but its....something.

Playing a 5 string means you're deeper into this territory. I owned a 5 string at one point where I was playing in clubs through an amp. It was OK, but...meh. Now I play a fair percentage of my gigs through decent PA's. A 5 string makes much more sense in that case, so now I regularly play 5 strings.

Would a cabinet that goes deeper help? Yes - the PA's I get to play through do that, and it's glorious when its set up right. One caveat about buying a cabinet that's rated down to 35 Hz - unless the cabinets you're comparing have limits specified on the response, you don't really know if the one with the 35 Hz spec actually goes lower or not - without limits, it's just playing with numbers that may or may not mean anything. A -3dB frequency point is typical for pro sound gear, but most bass guitar cabinets, if they are even specified, are typically specified at minus 6 or even 10 dB. If someone doesn't tell you what that limit is (how far down the response is at the frequency they're quoting), the number is meaningless.

 

[Phaidrus]

If you look at what the low E signal is comprised of, you will find that all of the harmonics exceed the level of the fundamental, so much of what you are hearing, even on a speaker flat below 40Hz, is mostly harmonics.

Even if the fundamental is present but much lower compared with the harmonics, the brain fills in the missing information so that you appear to hear the whole signal.

@micguy

Thank you for your response. So a cab rated 45Hz doesn't reproduce the fundamental 41Hz frequency of the open E string at all, not even at a very low volume. It only reproduces a mix of 82Hz and 123Hz and the listener's brain fills in the missing 41Hz. Correct?

 

[makanudo]

Part of this is specs. Your cabinet does something if you feed a low E into it - it's not that it's completely silent. The spec is also not well defined - Markbass says it goes down to 45 Hz, but with no limit specified - the likelihood when you don't see a limit is it's something like 10 dB down at 45 Hz. So, when you play a low F sharp (46 Hz-ish), what comes out has the fundamental of the note you're playing at about a tenth the power of higher frequencies - when you play a string, you not only get that frequency, but multiples of it. The octave of that note, because of the rolloff, will be much more prominent in the output than the fundamental. As 41 Hz is a bit lower, the fundamental there will be attenuated a bit more than at 45 Hz.

You also hear 82 Hz much better then you do 41 Hz. The upshot of this is you will hear a lot more 82 Hz (the octave up) than you will 41 Hz. But, the fact that the string also produces signal at 3 times the fundamental (123 Hz) gives your ear/brain combo information, to where you will kinda hear that the fundamental is there. It won't be nearly as solid or earth shaking as if it were capable of actually reproducing 41 Hz (a good PA can do that), but its....something.

Playing a 5 string means you're deeper into this territory. I owned a 5 string at one point where I was playing in clubs through an amp. It was OK, but...meh. Now I play a fair percentage of my gigs through decent PA's. A 5 string makes much more sense in that case, so now I regularly play 5 strings.

Would a cabinet that goes deeper help? Yes - the PA's I get to play through do that, and it's glorious when its set up right. One caveat about buying a cabinet that's rated down to 35 Hz - unless the cabinets you're comparing have limits specified on the response, you don't really know if the one with the 35 Hz spec actually goes lower or not - without limits, it's just playing with numbers that may or may not mean anything. A -3dB frequency point is typical for pro sound gear, but most bass guitar cabinets, if they are even specified, are typically specified at minus 6 or even 10 dB. If someone doesn't tell you what that limit is (how far down the response is at the frequency they're quoting), the number is meaningless.

My cab is rated 40 Hz to 10 Khz (-3dB) (2 way 12+6"). Just wondering if There's any benefit in setting a HPF at say, 35 Hz and letting the cab ride or should I just rely on 80 Hz and above and spare the speaker of that workload?

Paging @agedhorse as well.

 

[mrjim123]

Apologies in advance if my question is slightly off topic. My cab (a Markbass NY122) has a frequency response of 45Hz-20kHz. How does it manage to reproduce a low E at 41Hz? And would a cab rated, say, 35Hz-20kHz, be truer to what an open E string sounds like and hence sound better?

PS. I asked this question a while ago in another forum but I'm not sure I understood the answer.

See post #14, first sentence.

 

[seamonkey]

I don't agree with what some are saying the less bass means tighter. I define tighter as the appropriate scale of the harmonics to bring through the definition.

You might try a new or fatter B-string. They would have more harmonics and better definition. The 2nd harmonic for low be is around 60hz, which is above where some would set a HPF

Many amps have HPF built in already these days but set to a fixed frequency.

 

[micguy]

@micguy

Thank you for your response. So a cab rated 45Hz doesn't reproduce the fundamental 41Hz frequency of the open E string at all, not even at a very low volume. It only reproduces a mix of 82Hz and 123Hz and the listener's brain fills in the missing 41Hz. Correct?

It produces some of the fundamental, just not a lot of it.

 

[micguy]

My cab is rated 40 Hz to 10 Khz (-3dB) (2 way 12+6"). Just wondering if There's any benefit in setting a HPF at say, 35 Hz and letting the cab ride or should I just rely on 80 Hz and above and spare the speaker of that workload?

That depends to some extent on how loud you want it to go. If you're not pushing things, you can set the filter a bit lower, and it'll sound more solid. If you are pushing things, higher will help avoid pushing the speaker past its linear range of operation.

 

[Phaidrus]

It produces some of the fundamental, just not a lot of it.

Thank God! My musical world was almost shattered by the thought that after investing so much capital in gear and time in practicing/playing, I wasn't getting any of the holy 41Hz.

On a serious note, it's interesting that manufacturers won't build their cabs to just go a bit lower and cover the entire frequency range of a basic 4-string bass. I mean, how difficult would it be for Markbass to built a 40Hz-20kHz NY122 cab?

 

[Wasnex]

@micguy

Thanks for your response. So a cab rated 45Hz doesn't reproduce the fundamental 41Hz frequency of the open E at all, not even at a very low volume. It only reproduces a mix of 82Hz and 123Hz and the listener's brain fills in the missing 41Hz. Correct?

That is not what he is said.

1. The amount the cab attenuates the signal will depend on what frequency you are talking about, and how it relates to the cab's response curve.

This cab appears to produce about 120dB mid band. The lows start to roll off at about 100hz and the graph is 3dB per subdivision. So you can go to whatever frequency you want to consider and see how the signal will be modified...assuming your amp is set to flat response. For example at 40hz the output is about 108dB, which is 12dB down from 120dB.

2. Electric bass does not produce strong fundamentals to begin with. Here is a thread that shows the relationship between the fundamental and overtones in a bass guitar signal: Bass frequency/waterfall plots: what they mean to rigs

From the first post:

The graphs shows an F3 (43.65hz fundamental). Notice the fundamental is way weaker than the first overtone that is an octave higher.

If you look at the frequency response plot above, output at 43.65hz is about 109dB. So the response is down by (120-109)=11dB In other words, the cab will produce the fundamental, but it will be reduced by -11dB in relation to the higher overtones.

The important point is you really can't hear the fundamental, because the level of the fundamental is much lower than the first over tone....but your ears are tricked into perceiving the fundamental anyway.

IMHO the perception of fat bass is really encoded in the frequency range between about 75hz and 120hz. However, if you have a cab that can actually play flat down to the fundamental, in my experience the sound and feel will be a bit different. I won't say if this is good or bad because it depends on several factors. You may like it or not. Also the extra low frequency output may cause problems because it fights with the PA.

 

[Wasnex]

Thank God! My musical world was almost shattered by the thought that after investing so much capital in gear and time in practicing/playing, I wasn't getting any of the holy 41Hz.

On a serious note, it's interesting that manufacturers won't build their cabs to just go a bit lower and cover the entire frequency range of a basic 4-string bass. I mean, how difficult would it be for Markbass to built a 40Hz-20kHz NY122 cab?

It's a trade off. Some people quote Hoffman's law. Low, Loud (high sensitivity), Small...basically the idea is you can choose two. If it was easy to get all three, everyone would do it.

The priorities today seem to be Loud and Small.

 

[Phaidrus]

It's a trade off. Some people quote Hoffman's law. Low, Loud (high sensitivity), Small...basically the idea is you can choose two. If it was easy to get all three, everyone would do it.

The priorities today seem to be Loud and Small.

Thanks for the theoretical explanation and the graphs. The trade off between freq response, volume and size is interesting. As is your comment, that one may or may not like a cab going deeper, compared to a cab that doesn't. So now I have to try yet another cab.

 

[agedhorse]

Cabinets with extended low frequency response are possible, but they get bigger or they lose sensitivity and mid voicing. Everything surrounding cabinets is a trade-off, the most popular cabinets is where the cabinet's tradeoffs meet with the expectations of the players.

 

[micguy]

On a serious note, it's interesting that manufacturers won't build their cabs to just go a bit lower and cover the entire frequency range of a basic 4-string bass. I mean, how difficult would it be for Markbass to built a 40Hz-20kHz NY122 cab?

I have cabinets that do that - that I built. The 112 cabinet I have is probably bigger than most 115's are nowadays, and a bit less efficient. But it "digs" - you play a low E, and you feel how solid the low end is.

The challenge is, if you put that speaker in a music store, most folks would walk past it, and buy the smaller one with the bigger woofer - it's easier to transport, and the fact that the woofer is bigger makes it seem like a better value. Everyone wants loud, low, and light, but as has been said, if you want loud and light (those seem to be the priority for most folks), low goes out the window.

 

[StatesideRambler]

POn a serious note, it's interesting that manufacturers won't build their cabs to just go a bit lower and cover the entire frequency range of a basic 4-string bass. I mean, how difficult would it be for Markbass to built a 40Hz-20kHz NY122 cab?

We’ve said it in many ways here and elsewhere: if I may quote Malcolm S. Forbes, “It’s so much easier to suggest solutions when you don’t know too much about the problem.”

Designing and building a speaker system that stays relatively flat at very low frequencies is doable to a great extent but not to perfection. It’s simply not worthwhile. Say the cab reproduces 31Hz at the same level as it does 124Hz (2 octaves higher); our ears don’t sense the 31Hz as being the same loudness as the 124Hz. As agedhorse pointed out above, the brain fills in the “missing” information.

You’ll be miles ahead if you learn all you can about using the gear that’s available to you to its full capability. Do all you can to understand what underlies the vocabulary. Leave the hypothetical and theoretical stuff to physicists, acousticians and experienced designers. Unless, of course, working in one of those fields is your goal.

 

[JimmyM]

Thank God! My musical world was almost shattered by the thought that after investing so much capital in gear and time in practicing/playing, I wasn't getting any of the holy 41Hz.

On a serious note, it's interesting that manufacturers won't build their cabs to just go a bit lower and cover the entire frequency range of a basic 4-string bass. I mean, how difficult would it be for Markbass to built a 40Hz-20kHz NY122 cab?

About as easy as it would be to build any cab. It would just be bigger and wouldn’t go as loud, plus some folks believe it’s not needed, me being one of them. I’m not into whomping sub lows. I’ve found prime whomping range is 100-175 hz anyway. Some more lows are certainly beneficial but Jamerson had his tracks high passed at 70 and nobody complains you can’t hear his big fat E note.

 

[Tim Skaggs]

Cabinets with extended low frequency response are possible, but they get bigger or they lose sensitivity and mid voicing. Everything surrounding cabinets is a trade-off, the most popular cabinets is where the cabinet's tradeoffs meet with the expectations of the players.

Horse said a lot here. I found out about the loss of sensitivity and mids when I thought I had to have a cabinet that goes low. I had an Ampeg SVT-410HLF for a while that claims to have a useable low freq of 28Hz (which is at -10db). In certain rooms at certain volumes, the cab can sound good, but if you need some mid punch and articulation, what a frustrating piece of gear it was to deal with. It no longer lives at my house…

As Horse says, building a cab with extended low frequency is possible, but if you had one, you might find out it’s not what you wanted after all. I missed my mids a lot more than I enjoyed that thick, pillowy (undefined) low end.

Good luck.

 

[leonard]

The lowest lows are often problematic on boomy stages. That's why hi-pass filters get so much love. On many mixes the kick drum fills the lowest range and bass guitar sits above that.

 

[Outbush]

Firstly, thanks for all the responses! I see a lot of people chiming in who really know this stuff and quite a few like myself who are a bit flummoxed by it all. I feel that I'm not the only one benefitting here.

I posted my comment at night our time so I have not had time to truely get to everything, but a few comments. There have been some great explanations and discussions (typical to TB really) which have really helped out. Some have covered the same or similar graphs as elsewhere but with good explanations of what we're looking at which really helps.

It has all left me wondering, are we - people like me anyway - generally too hung up on what our gear says it does and what we think it is doing? It seems to me that the general direction of your responses is that we hear very little of our B and E fundamentals anyway, perhaps even our A fundamental depending on our rig but then even then our guitar is hardly producing and fundamental at all below the D string.

Could we loose everything below 65hz and never miss it? - Or am I going a bit too far there?

I am a stickler for intonation, a poorly intonated bass will never be really punchy so (although it hasn't been mentioned here) that isn't one of my issues. It is not my pickups impacting strings either as I am within spec and have spent time experimenting to make sure that isn't the issue.

I did run each of my speakers individually and there is a significant difference in how each speaker sounds. Also, after I played each individually and they both sounded very clear (the M-Line had more lows I thought) and plugged both back in there did seem to be some phasing going on especially on the B string. I have not had a chance to play each speaker individually at any volume on it yet as we were watching the TV but I will later when I get home from walking the dog. (Believe it or not, got the M-Line after the Wizzy 10 quite a few years ago when I played a 4 string and they sounded really nice and so I haven't played through either of them individually since.)

I will experiment a bit more with the HPF in my amp but I believe on my model that only impacts Channel 2 which is the DB channel (the EQ is centred a little higher at 800hz as opposed to 500hz for BG through Channel 1). I might be wrong so I'll have a little play with that HPF tonight if I can. I will report back on these experiments later too.

 

[Gizmot]

A high-pass filter will keep you from sending signals into your speaker(s) that they won’t reproduce. When you feed any speaker signals below it’s tuning frequency, the woofer(s) typically get overworked, causing distortion and driver failure in extreme cases. A high-pass filter will clean up and tighten up your sound.