If my speaker is only rated to 45hz do I need a HPF to tighten up my B string?

[brianrost]

So a cab rated 45Hz doesn't reproduce the fundamental 41Hz frequency of the open E string at all, not even at a very low volume.

It may or may not. If it's -10dB at 45hz, there's probably some 41 hZ getting through. -10dB means only half as loud. It's not like there is a brick wall at 45hZ.

the listener's brain fills in the missing 41Hz. Correct?

Yes, correct.

Thank God! My musical world was almost shattered by the thought that after investing so much capital in gear and time in practicing/playing, I wasn't getting any of the holy 41Hz.

You can hear the bass player on a small radio or TV speaker that probably rolls off somewhere around 100 hZ. It's not like every time the guy plays an E you suddenly don't hear the note.

Check out this online tone generator and choose the sine wave to actually hear fundamental frequencies without the harmonics. Then try the same frequencies with harmonics by playing the other three waveforms.

 

[GreyBeard]

In my experience,
if you're after a tight low end and don't like muddy sound, a HPF will do wonders for you.
Some units have HPF in place without advertising it too much, like the Sansamp pedals
or some amp heads.
I usually use a HPF unit with adjustable cutoff frequency and just set it to 'wide open', then
turn it up while playing low.
To my ears and with my gear, I can discern between unwanted mud and much wanted lows.
I turn the knob until it starts cutting wanted lows, then back off a bit and I'm done.

This is what I do also

 

[Phaidrus]

It may or may not. If it's -10dB at 45hz, there's probably some 41 hZ getting through. -10dB means only half as loud. It's not like there is a brick wall at 45hZ.



Yes, correct.



You can hear the bass player on a small radio or TV speaker that probably rolls off somewhere around 100 hZ. It's not like every time the guy plays an E you suddenly don't hear the note.

Check out this online tone generator and choose the sine wave to actually hear fundamental frequencies without the harmonics. Then try the same frequencies with harmonics by playing the other three waveforms.

Thanks for the link!

 

[Outbush]

Bit of an update from me-

I’ll do more research. Point 1. I sort of get it but…

2) the two cabs together may be having an impact on the clarity of the sound.

Now that I have listened to both individually and paired I think the M-Line is the sound I much prefer individually. I need more volume than what it produces alone so I’m considering trying to find another one in black like my existing one. If not available I may have to bite the billet and get a brown one if all the other specs are the same. That said, I will also investigate other cabs but to be honest it is probably way cheaper to just buy a second M-Line.

I may well buy a Broughton Hpf/Lpf too but the jury is still out on that one (it could live beside my tuner on the amp though which would make using it very convenient). I do wonder, are the Broughton filters steep enough? Does the sound benefit from super-steep filters? They certainly have their fans here at TB.

Thanks for the comments, keep them coming too - it seems it ain’t only me who struggles with this one.

 

[friend33]

I haven’t used the hpf/lpf, but if you are wanting more oomph at the margins, the RFE does that. I have one and it’s been somewhat of a revelation. To my ears, it’s the equivalent of the difference between a watercolor painting and a watercolor painting with varying degrees of shading/edging done in pencil, charcoal, or ink. Really adds definition and makes things pop.

Sadly though, in this thread I have learned that my ears/brain have been lying to me and deceiving me this whole time, telling me I am hearing things that I am not. My own flesh and blood! Very disappointing…

 

[jw23mind]

Most of those sub 50Hz or so end up being trouble in a mix, so it can be a benefit to have a cab NOT go that low. But still HPF adequately before the power am so as to not waste power down there, in any case.

 

[trjh2k2]

For a long time I avoided using the HPF filter built into the Crown power amp I use because the lowest setting it has is 50hz, which struck me as high at the time. Going by the discussion here - I think a low B ends up being somewhere close to 31hz, which would put the first harmonic/octave at 62-ish-hz. That makes it sound to me like a HPF at 50hz might actually be right on the money for a 5 string bass as long as you're not tuning down farther than that.

 

[Outbush]

So far my solution has been to (luckily pick up the last black) Wizzy 12M-Line and the 5 string now sounds great, very defined and present. Actually, I prefer the rig overall now but due to Covid lockdowns I still haven’t played it in a band setting. Whether an hpf/lpf is in my future I don’t know; we’ll see.

So a last question; there are quite a few active preamps & amps that have the bass tone adjustment somewhere around 45hz. How does that effect what we hear? Does it simply end up 1) pushing out more of the 1st & 2nd harmonic and so sounds deeper on the one hand and cutting the low mud on the other, or 2) does it push the speaker harder near the fundamental? It would be option 1) wouldn’t it?

PS It’s interesting that the Wizzy 10 & 12M-Line seemed to pair well when only playing a four string. Goes to show, every so often messing with your gear can be a real learning experience.

 

[jw23mind]

So far my solution has been to (luckily pick up the last black) Wizzy 12M-Line and the 5 string now sounds great, very defined and present. Actually, I prefer the rig overall now but due to Covid lockdowns I still haven’t played it in a band setting. Whether an hpf/lpf is in my future I don’t know; we’ll see.

So a last question; there are quite a few active preamps & amps that have the bass tone adjustment somewhere around 45hz. How does that effect what we hear? Does it simply end up 1) pushing out more of the 1st & 2nd harmonic and so sounds deeper on the one hand and cutting the low mud on the other, or 2) does it push the speaker harder near the fundamental? It would be option 1) wouldn’t it?

PS It’s interesting that the Wizzy 10 & 12M-Line seemed to pair well when only playing a four string. Goes to show, every so often messing with your gear can be a real learning experience.

Neither. Would likely increase mud. A center frequency of 45 is low as it is, and would also push up frequencies on either side of it. Use to set low bass relative to desired high frequencies; consider cutting at 45 instead to reduce mud. A n HPF would work better to reduce 45 and lower without reducing desired lows such as around 100 Hz

 

[jw23mind]

Neither. Would likely increase mud. A center frequency of 45 is low as it is, and would also push up frequencies on either side of it. Use to set low bass relative to desired high frequencies; consider cutting at 45 instead to reduce mud. A n HPF would work better to reduce 45 and lower without reducing desired lows such as around 100 Hz

Another way of saying this is: typical "bass" controls do not have super-steep roll-off on either side of the center frequency. There's not much space between desirable bass vs undesirable "sub" frequencies, so you end up controlling both to an extent. That's why these super-steep HPF filters are desirable; you can control the one with minimal effect on the other.

 

[Wasnex]

Another way of saying this is: typical "bass" controls do not have super-steep roll-off on either side of the center frequency. There's not much space between desirable bass vs undesirable "sub" frequencies, so you end up controlling both to an extent. That's why these super-steep HPF filters are desirable; you can control the one with minimal effect on the other.

AFAIK bass controls are typical shelving filters.

45hz may only be a specific frequency where a certain specification is given; for example +/- 12dB. This tells you how much boost and cut you have, but not where the actual cutoff frequency of the filter occurs.

For example:

In this chart, the bass control has the most boost and cut at 10hz, but it impacts frequencies up to about 700hz.

 

[Zbysek]

That makes it sound to me like a HPF at 50hz might actually be right on the money for a 5 string bass

Yes

 

[trjh2k2]

I've been keeping that filter on for the last while now, and while it might sound counter-intuitive to some, I can definitely vouch that I don't feel like I'm missing anything. If anything, a tiny bit of compression from upping my input gain and that hpf tightens things up quite a bit.