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Jeff Berlin asks - Post Bass Lines that Got You to Practice with a Metronome
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So what can "different strokes" possibly have to do with Berlin stating:
"The true source of the effectiveness of metronomes can be found in music history by seeking out how musicians in the past state that they either taught or acquired time. Precedence takes place over opinion."?
I provided an example of a top professional practicing with a metronome, and I'd like to hear his take on it.
I'd wager any amount of money that he doesn't respond to it.
ok, what i meant was she may have learnt from the metronome what some others may learn from other means like playing along to records or whatever else
Hello Jeff, a question to further understand the gist of this statement.
Are you saying that everyone learns (to play) music the same way? As in with an instrument, with music ( either aural or visual ) as a guide.
I ask because I can say with 100% certainty that we do not all learn the same way. Cognition varies greatly from individual to individual. In my 20+ years of teaching ( in general ) the difference between a good teacher and a great one is to learn the nuances of communication and recognizing the abilities of the student, then honing in on what works best. There is no one size fits all - I will concede there is a once size fits most.
For the topic at hand I am sorry, I do not have a click track to submit. I've never needed one personally. I suppose I am blessed with a musically functional sense of time. I will say that while I don't think a metronome is specifically needed ( for me at any rate ) I do see it's use as a tool. We can never have too many ways to achieve a goal.
Thank you Jeff. I've enjoyed your topics so far even if I've not felt knowledgeable in most to respond I have learned and that is the intent so job well done in my case.
I think you are developing your sense time indirectly with the metronome, even if you tell yourself you are not.
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Here’s a bass line, portions of which got me to break out the ol’ ‘nome:
I put the click in every beat, then beats one and three, two and four, the “+’s”, every other “+”, on the one only, two only, etc etc. Not necessarily in that order.
I try to make the click groove, for lack of a better term, by pretending it’s a real person. (And on gigs I sometimes pretend the drummer is a machine. A mental trick that keeps me from second guessing a drummer’s time and keeps me concentrating on the music.)
I do play regular gigs that have click tracks. In fact, I did a contemporary worship Christmas show last December that had click/backing tracks. I was a hired gun. I commented to the worship leader during rehearsals that the band was getting off the click. I asked if he wanted me to follow the band or the click. He responded that I was being paid to follow the click. So I did! (I’d like to get a call back this year!)
I do consider myself to have a horrid innate sense of time/rhythm/feel. Like...Real bad. Practicing a song’s specific tempo has helped me internalize/memorize where a specific song’s BPM should be, especially if I’m starting it!
EDIT: And I’ll post this just because. Good Gawd!
I put the click in every beat, then beats one and three, two and four, the “+’s”, every other “+”, on the one only, two only, etc etc. Not necessarily in that order.
I try to make the click groove, for lack of a better term, by pretending it’s a real person. (And on gigs I sometimes pretend the drummer is a machine. A mental trick that keeps me from second guessing a drummer’s time and keeps me concentrating on the music.)
I do play regular gigs that have click tracks. In fact, I did a contemporary worship Christmas show last December that had click/backing tracks. I was a hired gun. I commented to the worship leader during rehearsals that the band was getting off the click. I asked if he wanted me to follow the band or the click. He responded that I was being paid to follow the click. So I did! (I’d like to get a call back this year!)
I do consider myself to have a horrid innate sense of time/rhythm/feel. Like...Real bad. Practicing a song’s specific tempo has helped me internalize/memorize where a specific song’s BPM should be, especially if I’m starting it!
EDIT: And I’ll post this just because. Good Gawd!
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I use a metronome when, for example, I'm studying Bach, I first learn the piece without the metronome, then find a tempo where I can play the piece with good articulation, which is usually slower than I've been playing without the metronome. I will then increase the speed by a notch everyday or so until I've reached the point that I'm happy with my performance, then I'll play it without the metronome, taking care not to speed up. Works for me.
I would add, record your performance without the metronome, then play back your performance with the metronome on, to verify your time keeping.
Excellent process!
I can only suggest that if Carole addressed her tempo with a metronome, then she could have addressed it by paying attention to the time that the bands that she was playing in were producing. You don't end up one of history's top studio musicians by not being able to figure out how to play various versions of 4.
P.S. I read your rather snide comment regarding my not responding to your post. Realize that this kind of attitude isn't appreciated. I address as many posts as I deem important to address or if I get the chance to read them.
I disagree because metronomic tempo is an artificial tempo. Players are aiming for a time sense that isn't real and therefore are aiming for something musical insupportable. People should stop viewing a metronome as mandatory in your playing of time because it isn't.
Bach was never meant to be played in metronomic time for any reason of any kind. You should practice the music slowly until you have learned it well and then aim toward a tempo that you can play comfortably in. Almost everyone in history that played Bach did this.
I think that if Carol had attempted to burn studio time trying to sort out her time feel issues using the band as a reference, she would have been quickly replaced. Rather than wasting other peoples time and money because of some misguided preconceived notion about the ineffectiveness of metronomes (which I'm sure never crossed her mind in the first place), she made the wise decision and chose to work out her issue at home, using a perfectly effective tool. It did the job and history was made. It's difficult to argue with success, in my opinion, and she was very forthcoming with how she achieved it. If your experience is different, so be it. I don't buy your logic, but then, I'm not obligated to.
In the video, Motown drummer Earl Palmer called CK out on her time, obviously comparing her feel to a benchmark he was familiar with - Jamerson.
Carol - who, incidentally hasn’t played on an studio album in decades, always had a stiff feel. If she did do metronome work, it didn’t seem to help. It’s there, and it worked well in some music, but it remained stiff. It’s fair to surmise that Jamerson, the legendary rightful source of the Motown sound, didn’t work too much with a metronome because he didn’t really practice, period.
I wish you guys would come up with more timely and informed ways to antagonize Jeff Berlin. It’s almost as if you guys are putting this on your resumes because there’s nothing else of regard to put on them.
About 25% of the dollar note, and the sum of the two dimes and nickel notes.
You are going by commentary, not performance. You have adjusted your opinion by her thoughts, but not by her playing to where you noticed something in it that required attention. Every top bass player wanders slightly in the time. It will be difficult for you to find any C.K. performance at any time in her career where she recorded out of time to where her time was a detriment to anyone.
What makes this particular discussion interesting is how one bass player is now the benchmark for many to justify using a click. It is like the story that we heard regarding a guy, usually from Russia, who was purported to have smoked four packs of cigarettes a day since age ten and lived to be 112. This was supposed to show that not everyone gets lung cancer.
Regardless of anyone's opinion about her "stiff" bass playing or her "out of time" bass performances, people will be hard pressed to find anything like this to point to. She still is among the most recorded and lauded studio bass players in history. And if she couldn't play the bass with an equal feel as James Jamerson, who can?
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After reading Jeff's comments re: use of metronome on various different Forum's, I started questioning this myself. FYI, I have never practiced with metronome in my life, as from a very early age on I believed good tempo came mostly with good technique among other parameters. My personal experience is if I am out of shape on the instrument, I tend to rush on fast passages when I improvise. At the same time, to play those passages, I become more tense, particularly on my right hand (I play bass righty). As I gain my strength back after extended periods of gigging, practicing, my tempo settles even if I try to play/improvise stuff at insane tempos.
As for CK's comment, I interpret it as "not" correcting her tempo, but maybe looking into where she played the notes in reference to the beat; on top of it, in front of it, etc. Because of the attack of the instrument, playing in front of the beat on bass can give the impression that you are rushing, but that might not be the case actually. And it can be discomforting for some other musicians. I really cannot buy the argument that one can correct his/her tempo in a few days working with metronome...
As for CK's comment, I interpret it as "not" correcting her tempo, but maybe looking into where she played the notes in reference to the beat; on top of it, in front of it, etc. Because of the attack of the instrument, playing in front of the beat on bass can give the impression that you are rushing, but that might not be the case actually. And it can be discomforting for some other musicians. I really cannot buy the argument that one can correct his/her tempo in a few days working with metronome...
I read all the responses and can't help but think this is like trying to lead a horse to water.
Maybe "time" is just something that either you have and understand or you simply don't and it's going to be a challenge.
Sometimes you need to listen to the song...a LOT before you start trying to learn how to play it.
I sometimes try to sing parts while listening to them, over and over, and at a certain point I start locking in and some of what I thought was difficult, now is much easier to understand. I don't know, I'm not musically educated, not a teacher and I'm not a professional or working musician...so I'm just adding my .02.
I never used, or was asked to try a metronome. The thought never crossed my mind. My cats would love it, though....
Maybe "time" is just something that either you have and understand or you simply don't and it's going to be a challenge.
Sometimes you need to listen to the song...a LOT before you start trying to learn how to play it.
I sometimes try to sing parts while listening to them, over and over, and at a certain point I start locking in and some of what I thought was difficult, now is much easier to understand. I don't know, I'm not musically educated, not a teacher and I'm not a professional or working musician...so I'm just adding my .02.
I never used, or was asked to try a metronome. The thought never crossed my mind. My cats would love it, though....
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