Jeff Berlin asks - Post Bass Lines that Got You to Practice with a Metronome

[Joe Nerve]

Done

Much appreciated.

I'm out.

Thanks for leading the way .

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I don't use a metronome to develop my sense of time

I see you play the Double Bass.
I'm currently listening to the Double Bass player, Joscha Oetz.
Would you practice the following bass line excerpt with the metronome or not?
(In order not to aggravate some TB members with some "easy-listening" music, the sound will start in the middle of the composition.)

 

[jchrisk1]

Despite what you think, the language of music IS an absolute fact. And, it's all been laid out in an easy to learn format. Example;

Would you agree that a chord is made up of stacked thirds? And that a Cmaj7 consists of the notes C, E, G, and B? Or is that just my opinion? Would you also agree that the length of a whole note is four beats, and a quarter note is one beat? Do you see where I'm going with this? I agree with you that you can learn this however you choose, depending on your goals and what you want out of your musical life. But, the information is a fact. Whether you choose to go to school for it, or learn on your is your choice.

The whole metronome thing is moot IMO. I've never used one, my timing is good. You've used one, you're timing is good. But, nobody has perfect timing. Not even JB. And I'm sure he would attest to that.

 

[iTzPrime]

Good question! My answer is that it is a demonstration of time that doesn't exist in music.

If that would be true, there would be absolutely no rhythm. Rhythm by definition is a demonstration of time.

OK! Students don't have the right nor the experience to decide what they should learn. Further, they pay teachers to be in charge of their musical improvement but often don't let the teachers teach properly. It has been said here quite often by bass teachers that in order to prevent disgruntled students from leaving, they teach them what they want to keep them happy. This is an educational abomination.

Only in the teaching of the electric bass guitar have I seen where students are given the right to choose their teacher, choose their subject of learning, and are denied a specific education in music but literally encouraged to view learning as a broad approach. But, this doesn't exist in other forms of musical learning. Bass players are denied that their core musical needs are attended to because they now have permission to be a part of the way that they will be taught.

There is no way around the truth: students are required to let the teach be in charge of their musical development. If they take this responsibility upon themselves, they won't improve as players. This is a fact!

So you are saying it is better that they give up the instrument because the teacher isn't fun rather than being wrongly educated, learning a lot and having fun? All due respect Mr Berlin, but you might want to talk with school experts about this.

Sorry to always seeming to be the anti-guy about things that people bring up. But there is no relationship of with ones heartbeat and musical time of any kind. This is a total myth.

I read a study that they correlate to each other, do you have any prove of your statement?

Consider your view that there are many paths to take: There are also many ways to get from New York to Los Angeles, but there are only one or two that will get you there in the most direct and fastest way possible. And this is absolutely the truth

Few are improving as players because they embrace a broad academic approach to learning bass instead of choosing the one or two proven approaches to musical improvement.

First of why do I want to go from New York to Los Angeles, some people just choose a different path. Where would we be if everyone walks into the same direction not wandering of. Probably in the middle ages, waiting for the printing press to be invented.

Then tell me how to improve. You always say musical content, musical content and then argue against a broad academic approach? Musical content is pretty much the broadest definition there is. How do I improve? Please tell me specific answers instead of such broad terms.

Everyone that plays the bass has "absolutely" the same needs, 100% of you; no matter what style of music you play. You have to know the exact same notes and harmony as every other bass player needs to know in order to play those styles. As a community, you seem not to know the music that every styles functions on. Without understanding how to play the true language of music, the harmony and rhythm that every musical style is made up of, you have automatically (and sadly, deliberately) made a decision not to prepare yourself to play your instrument outside of the self taught abilities that you have gathered on your own. Because you can't play even close to your potential, you automatically don't qualify to play in any area of music except that of possibly a regional occasionally employed or jamming musician.

I don't need to learn any rhythmic content in brutal death metal or progressive metal like dream theater. Sure they are based on the same notes and harmony compared to let's say motown, but they are completely different in terms of rhythmic and melodic needs.

Again please tell me how to improve? Your answers are always so completely vague.

Despite what you think, the language of music IS an absolute fact. And, it's all been laid out in an easy to learn format. Example;

Would you agree that a chord is made up of stacked thirds? And that a Cmaj7 consists of the notes C, E, G, and B? Or is that just my opinion? Would you also agree that the length of a whole note is four beats, and a quarter note is one beat? Do you see where I'm going with this? I agree with you that you can learn this however you choose, depending on your goals and what you want out of your musical life. But, the information is a fact. Whether you choose to go to school for it, or learn on your is your choice.

The whole metronome thing is moot IMO. I've never used one, my timing is good. You've used one, you're timing is good. But, nobody has perfect timing. Not even JB. And I'm sure he would attest to that.

Nobody is arguing about that. we are arguing about the need of a student vs what Jeff Berlin thinks is right.

 

[NickyBass]

I see you play the Double Bass.
I'm currently listening to the Double Bass player, Joscha Oetz.
Would you practice the following bass line excerpt with the metronome or not?
(In order not to aggravate some TB members with some "easy-listening" music, the sound will start in the middle of the composition.)

Thanks for sharing that. If it was a solo that I was transcribing and I was having trouble with getting the phrase up to speed, I would work with the metronome. However, I personally don’t use the metronome for working out bass lines.

 

[JeffBerlin]

we are arguing about the need of a student vs what Jeff Berlin thinks is right.

Fair enough! A good place to figure out how learning best works is to go back into music history and see how everyone, practically 100% were taught if they were not self taught players. They were all taught to practice musical content and they all did it out of time. If you can find even one example to the contrary, please post it here.

It isn't what I think is right. It is how proper music education functions. I've noticed that many people don't understand this and therefore believe that I am arguing for my own personal views. Ironically, my views aren't mine, but simply are the views that all music is taught. Then one day, a group of bass players decided that what worked in how all instruments were taught suddenly didn't apply to electric bass players and told them so. The sad news is that the electric bass players believed it to the point that they barely know how to play.

Go into music history and choose ten artists from ten different eras of music that play ten different instruments and see if you can find even one that wasn't trained in music or who wasn't self taught. If you can't, then everyone that seems upset with my views about learning should really take the time and review their priorities about learning. Good luck!

 

[JeffBerlin]

All due respect to you and your opinion on metronomes Jeff but I think you might be loosing credibility with the blanket statements and generalizations you keep throwing out there. Metronomes and BPM is a major part of almost entire genres of music in today’s world. EDM is almost exclusively set to metronomic time and the producers of this music are world famous whether we like it or not.

They are a part of the mechanical recording of music. They aren't a part of music in either the learning nor performance of it. A click is entirely a tool of function used after someone already learns their part. Therefore, it plays no role in the forming of the music, the learning of the music, or the performance of the music before recording. Like groove, a metronome is last in the scheme of learning but I only include it as a part of learning or playing because bass players can't imagine a musical life without one. Just know that a click is an invention that doesn't function in music. But music has been forced to function in the dimensions of a click. See what I mean?

 

[JeffBerlin]

Despite what you think, the language of music IS an absolute fact. And, it's all been laid out in an easy to learn format. Example;

Would you agree that a chord is made up of stacked thirds? And that a Cmaj7 consists of the notes C, E, G, and B? Or is that just my opinion? Would you also agree that the length of a whole note is four beats, and a quarter note is one beat? Do you see where I'm going with this? I agree with you that you can learn this however you choose, depending on your goals and what you want out of your musical life. But, the information is a fact. Whether you choose to go to school for it, or learn on your is your choice.

The whole metronome thing is moot IMO. I've never used one, my timing is good. You've used one, you're timing is good. But, nobody has perfect timing. Not even JB. And I'm sure he would attest to that.

I would indeed! Pursuing perfect time isn't a realistic goal in being a musician.

 

[Roy Royerson]

They are a part of the mechanical recording of music. They aren't a part of music in either the learning nor performance of it. A click is entirely a tool of function used after someone already learns their part. Therefore, it plays no role in the forming of the music, the learning of the music, or the performance of the music before recording. Like groove, a metronome is last in the scheme of learning but I only include it as a part of learning or playing because bass players can't imagine a musical life without one. Just know that a click is an invention that doesn't function in music. But music has been forced to function in the dimensions of a click. See what I mean?

Agreed Jeff. And I hope people here are clear that you’re not saying metronomes have no place in Music, but rather a metronome won’t give you good time. At least that’s what I think you are saying. I’m not a proponent of metronomes for anything unless it’s neccissary in the studio. Unfortunately more and more acts, especially electronic and dance music use a click or metronomic beat during performances but hopefully that won’t be a growing trend.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Agreed Jeff. And I hope people here are clear that you’re not saying metronomes have no place in Music, but rather a metronome won’t give you good time. At least that’s what I think you are saying. I’m not a proponent of metronomes for anything unless it’s neccissary in the studio. Unfortunately more and more acts, especially electronic and dance music use a click or metronomic beat during performances but hopefully that won’t be a growing trend.

Thank you for your thoughts. I am a proponent of one thing only, that we are responsible for our time, our note choices and our playing. But teachers are entirely 100% responsible for our musical improvement. This is where I function from, from OUR responsibility to ourselves to do the right thing to musical improve. I know how to make anyone improve because we all learn the same way if we are being taught correctly. Best regards, Jeff

 

[slobake]

There is no way around the truth: students are required to let the teach be in charge of their musical development. If they take this responsibility upon themselves, they won't improve as players. This is a fact!

 

[mobdirt]

the more you gig the better everything else should lead to that

 

[JeffBerlin]

the more you gig the better everything else should lead to that

Could be! Could be not! There's a lot of gigging musicians that seem to plateau and stay there, sometimes for years. At least with proper musical training, you are always guaranteed a new musical point of view to work on each week. Little beats new music each week to regard to beef up one's musical ability.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

We don't simply absorb information - we internalize it and make it our own by finding some way to put this knowledge to practical use.”
― Robert Greene

There's a lot of gigging musicians that seem to plateau and stay there, sometimes for years.

It's all about the musician's attitude and desire to explore something new, incorporate new ideas, etc...

 

[mobdirt]

Could be! Could be not! There's a lot of gigging musicians that seem to plateau and stay there, sometimes for years. At least with proper musical training, you are always guaranteed a new musical point of view to work on each week. Little beats new music each week to regard to beef up one's musical ability.

All true it also depends on what gig, band, and how often the band writes and performs new material. I am extremely lucky in that regard, i love the babas in my band and am very proud to be part of it. When you hang and play with the "right" musicians its a good thing more often than not

 

[mobdirt]

i really think what lacks most these days is musicians playing with each other, theres a lot of home solo practice, it can only take you that far.. its like the sense of community is diminishing slowly

 

[Spin Doctor]

Opinions about metronomes aren't what counts. Of course people are going to state their opinion. The true source of the effectiveness of metronomes can be found in music history by seeking out how musicians in the past state that they either taught or acquired time. Precedence takes place over opinion.

Well Carol Kaye specifically said in an interview that when she first started doing studio work that she was told she had a problem with her time which she specifically said was solved by using a metronome. I'm really interested in hearing a response from Mr. Jeff Berlin on this...

You can here it at time 10:00

 

[mobdirt]

Well Carol Kaye specifically said in an interview that when she first started doing studio work that she was told she had a problem with her time which she specifically said was solved by using a metronome. I'm really interested in hearing a response from Mr. Jeff Berlin on this...

You can here it at time 10:00

horses for courses (?)

 

[Spin Doctor]

horses for courses (?)

I'm sorry... whut? Anything wrong with just saying what you mean? The video I posted specifically addresses what Berlin stated.

 

[mobdirt]

I'm sorry... whut? Anything wrong with just saying what you mean?

its an old saying, basically same as the different strokes saying