Jeff Berlin asks - Post Bass Lines that Got You to Practice with a Metronome

[Groove Doctor]

 

[Quinn Roberts]

How long is a quarter note?

Two eighth notes, but how long are they?

 

[Roy Royerson]

Sorry Jeff that I’m posting another video of a track that WASN’T recorded with a click. I realized after posting and added this edit but after reading the entire thread I think it’s at least a little relevant to the debate.

I avoid metronomes as much as possible and always have. Especially when the sound of the metronome has no musical quality to it. At least make it some shakers or something. If I’m recording and there’s a click track I’ll turn it down in my headphones and just listen to the band. I also try to campaign for no metronome whenever i can If it’s not necessary in the studio.

As a teenager just starting to play bass my piano player friend talked me into joining the high schools jazz band. I did have to use a metronome when practicing Chick Corea’s Spain. We used to just butcher the song too, never performed it, and I’m not sure we ever even made it to the end of the song. Pretty cool the instructor gave us stuff like that though. The internet was crude and in its infancy at the time so I couldn’t easily access the track to play along with the actual recording like I would today. Not for timing or rhythm as a musician overall but the metronome was helpful to keep the pace pushed and keep me honest tempo wise. Especially as a beginner bassist playing alone and practicing material that really challenged my skills.

 

[iTzPrime]

Thanks for sharing. But, in my post, I was asking people to post links of click track bass performances that influenced their decision to practice with a metronome. You posted a live track of 10 guys playing in time without ever using one. This bodes my question about why most bass players cannot imagine a life without a metronome as with one. I have the view that no one will ever acquire an improved sense of time with a click as it isn't possible to play in time unless one can play. But since so many bass players can't imagine a life without a click, they either were told by rather ill-informed (yet well meaning) bass instructors to use one, or they listened to bass tracks that influenced their decision to use one.

The problem with this is that as soon as a drummer starts to play, you are required to "agree' with their 16th note subdivision. So, if you can play 16th notes without a click or with one, you have to accommodate the drummer (and other musicians) which can't be learned by playing to a click that has no relationship to the time that your live playing colleagues are producing.

I couldn't find a click track bass performance, to be honest there are hardly any online. I do however have practiced this song with a metronome.
Your view is that I don't get an improved sense of time by doing so and that might be correct, however a metronome can improve my rhythm. No matter how long I practiced, I couldn't get my 16th to align with the band. I was sloppy. I tried slowing down, but as soon I went up to a certain threshold, the rhythm would be all over the place. My bass teacher, who mainly teaches double bass, and in normally is an advocate for not using a metronome, suggested trying it. It worked wonders. In a few days my sloppiness disappeared and even my teacher was impressed by my progress. So whenever I don't get a song right after practicing for a long time, I often use a metronome.

Sure you have to agree to the drummer, but sadly in a non professional world, drummers are all over the place. Not just the slight speed adjustments, but sloppy playing in general. The whole bands often sound sloppy as a result. Practicing with a metronome allowed me to play more in time (by imagining the click) and the drummer to be more precise as well since the guitarists were locking in with me.
YMMV

 

[JeffBerlin]

IMO the metronome is the next best thing to having an experienced drummer or timekeeper to work with. Not everybody has that. To improve you need feedback. When your playing and internal feel matches the click (or whoever you're working with) then you know you're getting somewhere. Otherwise it's like target practice without ever getting to check your targets to see how you did.

A screwdriver which has a proper hardened tip and matches the screw recess that's being driven (surprising how many don't) is the best tool. Not everybody has that. In which case you use a cheap junk screwdriver or a butter knife. Which is still way better than having nothing but your bare fingertips.

Everybody whose playing you have ever admired found a decent live playing situation to hone their skills with. Everybody! If they don't, it's because they haven't looked, or they haven't learned how to play well enough to play live yet.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Let me continue.
I totally agree that in MANY cases, especially when playing that "modern/ized" jazz, it's ENOUGH just to say,
"Hey, meet me on Beat 1".
(I'm not crazy to disagree with my favorite Steve Gadd.)
That's what I call the "timing environment requirements".

And it's OK for the BEST of the Bass players in the world, but...
I, as just an amateur, see and hear MORE within one measure than just "Oh, yeah, they tend to "meet" on Beat 1".
Everybody can hear the heart beat, but for some reason, we have more sophisticated technology to look at tiny heart beat nuances.

Anyway.
My, internalized with the help of the metronome, phrase becomes flexible enough to be adjusted in order to meet/agree with the drummer's timing (within some agreed tolerance.)

Let's do an experiment.
If we start two mechanical, computerized (sequencer) digital clicks at the same time - with PERFECT TIMING, we will have an ISSUE. They won't be tight, they will become unacceptable time-wise without adjustment.
What if a drummer with a perfectly-digitized metronomic click timing is playing with the same kind of bass player, and NOBODY wants to adjust?
To summarize.

It's all about INTERNALIZING that musical unit within any given time-wise requirement and environment.
It's all about that ARTICULATION of a Music(al) unit within any given mood-wise, character-wise requirement.
One could take (and I've provided NUMEROUS examples) any live music played by SUPERB musicians and notice some slight/not so slight tempo variations!!!
It HAPPENS all the time, but...
It's all about that Audience and/or other band musicians' perception/s of being rhythmically "TIGHT" as a band.

Once again, to me, the metronome, click is that helper/adjuster that make my
"room decoration" beautiful, unique, attractive, etc...
Let's say, we've just moved some furniture pieces - the MUSIC(AL) notes, rests, phrases - into the room.
"Meet me on Beat1" - the furniture is in the room (within one/two measures) but HOW comfortable, how convenient, how beautiful that room - MEASURE - looks?
The metronome HELPS ME - only ME - to arrange that furniture/internalize that phrase, pattern, riff, etc...
And I do NOT care about other people's ROOMS, and I don't care about other people's articulation.
It's all about my selfish ME and my helper/adjuster - the Metronome.
Now.
I'd like to emphasize that difference between the Click, Metronome - as ME without no clothes,
and
the fully-grooving articulated drum-machine/software/sequencer pattern, or full line as ME properly dressed in clothes that HIDES some of my "issues", unattractive body shapes, etc...

While we are talking about those "adjustment" issues/problem, let me tell you that I've encountered, many times, situations that required my articulation adjustments because the drummer got new Zildjian hi hat cymbals.

Here is an experiment for you to try!

Take the melody from Swan Lake. Play it in its original key of B minor. Learn from 0:07 to 0:33. Then play it on your bass. I predict that you won't do it correctly, not until you've learned the melody. A metronome has no bearing on time. Music does and it does for everybody.

Don't be offended by this next statement. I mean it to help.

You and most other people that state that whatever source of learning worked for them are in a delusion about what actually works. I've barely met even one person that made this statement that didn't instantly succumb to this fact when music was put into their way. I do this at clinics and it's fascinating to see when all bass players with this view, 100% of them, instantly struggle with both playing and time. Why? Because barely anyone has a time problem. It is another myth of bass education and the bass community. You don't have a problem with time. You have a problem with music.

I know that this statement opens up a lot of arguments that people might offer. But, opinions don't count. Music and the result of learning and playing it is the only thing that does count. Try learning the melody to Swan Lake and instantly notice how you won't do this with ease nor in time. But, if you keep at it, you WILL see an improvement in both time and playability of the melody. Then ask yourself how I predicted exactly your experience with learning this melody. I did because everybody learns the same way and we all share the same musical needs. Hence, "what works for me" is mostly a statement of a self taught player unaware of musical academic truth. The good news is that you whole musical thing can begin to change in an hour if you really wish it to.

Let me know how your experience with Swan Lake went.

 

[JeffBerlin]

How long is a quarter note?

About an inch and a half????????????????????????

 

[Kmrumedy]

Here is one of the best lessons of using a metronome for a specific "musical improvement and result". Which should be the goal of any focused lesson rather than throwing it into the umbrella of "time".

If anyone doesn't know who Jeff Andrews is just look him up. Transcribe some of his solos for some of the most harmonically richest lines you will hear from a bass player in modern jazz.

 

[Bassbeater]

I try to play around the metronome and add as much pocket as is permissible without letting the metronome flatten the groove. It's an essential tool for me, still i miss the subtle temp ramping that comes naturally from playing without a click. Some deep pocketed rhythms really make tracking to a metronome difficult for me. Because most of what i write is produced and played remotely as collaborations, i tend to make a reference track and then give the track stems to the drummer. Usually i start with chopped audio drum samples or a click to keep the early recordings in time. Sometimes the drummer mutes the click track and records to my instrumentation, sometimes the drummer mutes guitars and plays to the click and vocals. Typically I then retrack the earlier recorded stem parts to the new drum parts. Sorry I don't have any exercises recorded like that, but thought my metronome uses might be interesting. My way of working is more connected with remote collaboration workflow than anything else. My linked sig track was made that way.

 

[bass12]

The recordings that make me pull out the metronome are my own. When I record a live show and hear myself pushing (it's usually pushing more than dragging with me) I will then play along to a metronome during practice. This helps me become more aware of where I need to check myself time-wise for future performances. It's not that the metronome helps to "give me" good time, it's that it helps me identify my tendencies and helps me to know how it feels to play in time during "trouble" parts of a given song.

 

[Joe Nerve]

How does a particular song have anything to do with someone using a metronome to improve their time? Who here has ever said they had to use a metronome to learn a James Brown tune?

Sorry, but I honestly feel like this is a troll thread. I'd explain again how a metronomes has helped me in my playing, but I'm certain it will be dismissed as it has all the other times I took the time to do that.

 

[Joe Nerve]

I also don't see anyone saying they can't imagine life without a click, nor that a click is necessary in order to become a great player, with great timing.

 

[Bassbeater]

I also don't see anyone saying they can't imagine life without a click, nor that a click is necessary in order to become a great player, with great timing.

I can't imagine making music without a click. Builders don't technically NEED a hammer to build a house, but they sure do speed up the process. That's how I feel about metronomes/clicks and making/learning music.

 

[jallenbass]

I can't imagine making music without a click. Builders don't technically NEED a hammer to build a house, but they sure do speed up the process. That's how I feel about metronomes/clicks and making/learning music.

A tape measure and level would make a better analogy here.

 

[Joe Nerve]

I can't imagine making music without a click.

I don't have any problem making music without a click. Most recordings I've done were done without a click, and I actually prefer it like that. The music is much more alive, IMO. To be honest, that is something that USING a click might be able to help you with . Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

I also decided I want to write my experience and thoughts again. Just to make it easier to exit this thread when it becomes necessary.

And here we go....

Somewhere around 1990 I switched from guitar over to bass, and fell in love. The band I joined was supportive of my transition. We jammed a lot, I learned a lot, but I struggled. At some point the guitarist suggested I start practicing with a metronome. I listened. I found a bunch of exercises and spent a lot of time playing to a click at all different BPMs. What I found was that doing that helped put my playing and jamming on sort of automatic pilot. It got much easier to groove, to listen, and to make the band sound like a super tight unit. I didn't play like that before I was practicing with a metronome. To argue my experience is to call me a liar. I am not a liar.

Did I NEED to practice to a metronome? Maybe/probably not, but it definitely helped.

Another benefit I'm certain I got from it was that it helped tune my brain to think differently. Practicing my improvisational skills to a click helped train me to more quickly and accurately get out of my fingers what I was hearing in my head. Playing slowly, out of time, finding the right notes was a part of my process, but really thinking on my toes got fine-tuned once the click was engaged.

I don't believe a metronome is vital to develop great timing, but for some it's incredibly helpful. My experience and millions of other musicians will attest to that. Working with great musicians, especially drummers with impeccable timing is the next best thing - but I think working with a metronome can help get someone to the point where they're in the same league as those great musicians. That again was the case with me.

Finally, for now anyhow, a metronome has been used by me AS A TOOL to get riffs that were impossible to nail up to speed. I'm sure I could have used other methods, but using a metronome made it mathematical, quantifiable, and very simple for a number of reasons. I'd play the notes at a ridiculously slow speed until muscle memory kicked in, then slowly start speeding things up. A few hours of doing that over a couple of days enabled me to play what was previously beyond impossible.

That is my experience. That is the experience of many people I've learned from, and heard from over 20 years on Talkbass.

Why, @JeffBerlin does it bother you so much? Is it because you can’t fathom the idea that something you've been saying and arguing for decades might not be true?

 

[Joe Nerve]

Let me assure you Jeff Berlin is not a troll.

Never said he was. Said I thought the thread was a troll thread. Something posted to inflame others and get them going. Jeff knows our arguments. He’s been arguing with us for a month now. I was kinda proud of myself for not engaging any more... but alas...

 

[JeffBerlin]

I also don't see anyone saying they can't imagine life without a click, nor that a click is necessary in order to become a great player, with great timing.

Almost every bass teacher teaches using it. Almost every bass teacher tells their students to use one. Bass players literally cannot imagine practicing without one. I am surprised at your naivite regarding the attitude surrounding this device.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Nope. But plenty of “musicians” don’t have good time. So, why not try a metronome to practice? Cuz Jeff says learning “music” is more important than timing? I disagree. Its probably more important than theory in many types of music. And, one method of learning isn’t correct for everyone. I’ve never used a metronome, but plenty of folks I’ve seen could probably benefit from some sort of click or metronome.

If many musicians don't have good time, then I don't know who you have been listening to. The only players that don't have good time are players that haven't yet learned how to play. Yes, it is that simple! Time is equal as pitch and subdivision. You are mistaken that I ever stated that music is more important than timing and you can't find one reference where I ever stated this.

Time is such a basic part of live performance that if someone cannot exhibit really good time in what they play, then they aren't ready to play until they learn how to play better. Hence, the need for a regulated regard of musical content.

 

[Joe Nerve]

Almost every bass teacher teaches using it. Almost every bass teacher tells their students to use one. Bass players literally cannot imagine practicing without one. I am surprised at your naivite regarding the attitude surrounding this device.

I see it the other way around. I think you’re stuck on this idea and might have some sort of tunnel vision around it. I don’t know many people here who cannot imagine practicing without a metronome. Not saying they don’t exist, but I actually don’t know of a single one. I rarely if ever use one now. Only for tackling phrases (as I mentioned earlier) that are out of my leaugue. Not playing anything all that complicated these days though.

 

[JeffBerlin]

And to answer Jeff op, I can’t name a bassline that got me to practice with a metronome....I’ve never owned one. I learned by pressing rewind on my favorite cassette tapes....listening back and figuring out the notes while keeping with the beat(drums, which were probably recorded to a click). But I HAVE seen plenty of musicians and bands that made me want to suggest playing WITH a click or metronome.

If anyone that you have heard plays to where you feel that they need a click (meaning, that they are playing out of time) this only happens when players haven't learned how to play to qualify to play a gig.